WEBVTT

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The theme of today's conference focuses on a central issue for companies: employees.

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Attracting and retaining talent is no longer just a matter of offering a competitive salary.

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Remuneration needs to be considered a little more globally, a little more holistically,

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and include key components such as attractive occupational benefits

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or, in certain circumstances, full participation.

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Alongside other factors that I would perhaps describe as less tangible, such as a safe and motivating working environment, the various components of

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remuneration represent powerful levers for you, as a company director, to strengthen your attractiveness to these talents.

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Today, we're fortunate to have some top experts on hand to shed light on the subtleties of compensation in general and professional prevalence in

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particular, and to provide you with the important tools you need to put together competitive packages on the job market.

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As a cantonal public authority, we also have a role to play in this labor market. This obviously involves creating the right framework conditions for

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a competitive labor market. The competitiveness of Geneva as a business location depends on it.

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In this respect, as you may have seen, there was a rather important communication. The Conseil d'Etat, which has made employability one of its priority

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objectives in the 2023-2028 legislative program, this week published a cantonal master plan for employability.

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This cantonal plan comprises 14 measures divided into 4 strategic areas.

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It is the fruit of a joint approach by the State, the social partners, company representatives and trade union representatives,

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who have set up this program, which aims to strengthen the match between the skills of people in Geneva and the needs of the job market.

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If you're interested in this program, you'll find it on our innovation.ge.ch website.

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In conclusion, traditional thanks to our long-standing breakfast partners, SMEs and startups.

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The logos of these partners appear here on the screen.

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I'd particularly like to thank FER Genève for welcoming us here in this beautiful hall.

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And Frédéric THOMASSET, editor-in-chief of Bilan magazine, who will play a central role this morning as moderator.

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He will also introduce the speakers, whom I would like to thank once again.

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So, I hope you enjoy the conference and the rich discussions, whether during the question-and-answer session or afterwards during the coffee and croissant part.

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I'd now like to hand over to Sophie HEURTAULT MALHERBE, Deputy General Manager of FER Genève.

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Merci.

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Ladies and Gentlemen, dear entrepreneurs

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On behalf of the General Management of FER Genève

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It's my turn to welcome you to this breakfast for SMEs and start-ups.

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So imagine a young start-up founder

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Passionate, full of ideas, focused on the product, its growth and its next round of financing.

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Everything goes fast, he hires his team

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and one day a colleague asked him this seemingly innocuous question,

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and occupational pension plans: what's our situation?

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Silence. The young company founder is taken by surprise.

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Some of you may already have experienced this scene,

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it illustrates why we are here this morning.

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After all, when starting a business, occupational pension provision is not always a priority,

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we think load, cash flow, survival of the company,

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it quickly becomes a strategic lever for differentiation.

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But why is this theme so important? Because it resonates so deeply with our society.

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The latest UBS concern barometer shows this very clearly.

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By 2024, pension provision in the broadest sense of the term was the third most important concern of the Swiss population.

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What's perhaps a little more surprising, however, is the importance of foresight among younger people,

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generation Z in particular.

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Often wrongly perceived as carefree or unconcerned about the long term,

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this generation ranks pension provision as its fourth most important concern.

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Remarkably, 34% consider it a major concern,

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a higher proportion than in the population as a whole.

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It may seem surprising, but it's not,

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since in 2024, the votes on the 13th pension and on the reform of the BVG

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have crystallized political and media discussions.

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If this context has made the subject more concrete, more urgent and more visible,

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It is also part of a more profound evolution in working relationships and expectations of employers.

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It's a fact that employees of all generations aspire to more meaning, a better balance, but also a better long-term vision.

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In this new equation, benefits have become a choice criterion in their own right, on a par with salary or career prospects.

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The Global Benefits Attitude study conducted by WTW Switzerland last year confirms this.

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Two out of five employees chose their current position on the basis of the benefits on offer.

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More than half claim to stay with their company for the same reasons.

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And for the same salary, 38% would be prepared to change employer for better benefits.

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Finally, 62% consider occupational pension provision to be their main means of saving for retirement.

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It's clear, therefore, that occupational pension provision has become a genuine criterion of attractiveness, loyalty and projection.

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With this in mind, it's no longer just a matter of ticking the BVG box.

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It's about recognizing that a good pension plan is a strategic human resources lever.

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and a marker of consideration that can have a direct impact on motivation, loyalty and productivity.

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Consequently, regularly updating your pension plan and adapting it to the realities of your teams sends out a strong message: "We're

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growing with you, and we're taking care of you".

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That's why, at FER Genève, we're convinced that occupational pension provision is an investment, not a burden.

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With this in mind, we are working on several fronts to support our members.

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Firstly, by organizing and hosting events such as today's, which raise awareness, encourage discussion and provide practical insights into sometimes complex issues.

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Secondly, through CIEP, our inter-company occupational pension fund, which offers six pension plans to meet the specific needs of

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SMEs and the self-employed, at attractive conditions.

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Lastly, since 2024, we have been offering employee benefits consulting, which includes customized in-company training for teams,

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personalized advice for managers and HR, and individual interviews for employees.

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Before handing over to our various speakers, I'd like to end with a simple conviction.

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It's often the details that might be considered secondary that make the difference.

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In a demanding economic environment, where every talent counts, a company's ability to project itself, reassure and instill confidence has become a decisive advantage.

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With this in mind, occupational benefits are no longer just a matter of compliance.

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Today, it's a concrete expression of your corporate culture, a way of telling your employees that "you have a future here, and we're thinking about it with you".

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This morning, you'll discover levers, ideas and solutions.

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It's up to you to make them your own and build a more solid, more humane and more sustainable model.

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Thank you for your attention, and I wish you an inspiring, pragmatic and action-oriented conference.

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Hello everyone. As always, it's a pleasure for me to host these breakfasts.

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You'll come out of it better informed, and with a better understanding of the risks involved.

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I'm delighted to be here with you. I won't say it again, but I'll say it again anyway.

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Today, we're going to tackle the complex but fascinating subject of occupational pensions.

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and all the strategies that can help you get better organized.

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We are, of course, surrounded by experts with relevant and enriching points of view on the subject.

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So you'll be able to follow this session with pleasure and enthusiasm.

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Let me introduce today's program.

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So we're going to start with the fundamentals of occupational benefit planning and the structuring of pension plans by Yves GRANGIER and Vincent BURDET.

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Next, we'll take a look at compensation in an international context,

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tax and social aspects, secondment, expatriation, impatriation, by Ms Chams FRIAA and Antoine LEFEBVRE.

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And finally, we'll finish with the challenges of compensation transparency and its impact, by Mr Kevin BOTI.

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After that, we move on to a 30-minute question-and-answer session.

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I imagine you'll have plenty. You must have a lot, there's a lot to say, a lot to do.

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And what's really interesting, then, for those who haven't yet got the hang of it..,

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is that you can scan the QR code right now.

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and that means you don't have to wait until the end of the presentations to ask questions.

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Anything you want to ask when things are said

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are recorded on a tablet that I don't have with me, but that I'll be getting shortly.

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And then we can come back to it.

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So rather than forgetting your question, go ahead and send in the questions.

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And then at the end, for half an hour, all the speakers will return to the stage to respond.

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Then you can add new ones, but please don't hesitate.

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Well, let's start the first presentation and open the floor to discussion.

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So, with Messrs Yves GRANGIER and Vincent BURDET, whom I'd like to invite to the stage,

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I'd like to introduce you to our two partners.

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So, Mr Vincent BURDET, fiduciary expert, approved auditor,

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deputy director and head of the fiduciary department

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of BDO's Geneva branch.

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After more than 10 years of experience

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in business management support and consulting,

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acts as project manager

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in consulting and administrative management mandates,

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accounting, tax, payroll,

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as well as in setting up PR,

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valuation, financial planning and consolidation.

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Thank you very much.

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Let me introduce you to his colleague

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Mr Yves GRANGIER.

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Yves GRANGIER is a tax expert.

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He joined BDO Geneva as Deputy Director.

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He holds a master's degree in law.

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and after more than 20 years with the Big Four and various tax consultancies, he joins BDO.

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He has also worked for a tax authority.

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He has acquired extensive knowledge in the field of corporate and individual taxation.

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with extensive experience in Swiss restructuring and real estate taxation,

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mergers, acquisitions and litigation procedures, as well as patrional transfers.

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I can tell you that before we spoke, he had lots of things to say, and he's very keen.

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So I invite you to take your seats for this first part.

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Fundamentals of occupational benefit planning and structuring pension plans.

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Thank you, gentlemen.

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Merci.

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I invite you to do so.

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So if I had told my grandfather or even my father that I would be doing at under 40

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a presentation on occupational benefits to attract talent,

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they wouldn't necessarily have understood.

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But times have changed.

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Today, more than ever, occupational benefits are a lever for attractiveness.

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for your PM1 and your start-up.

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That's why it's so important to understand the fundamentals of pension planning and how these plans are structured.

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I'm Vincent Burdès, and I've been helping entrepreneurs and SMEs to manage their occupational benefits for over 10 years now,

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as well as employee benefit funds and foundations in their management.

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I will have the pleasure of co-hosting this presentation with Yves GRANGIER, tax expert,

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who will outline the main principles to be observed when drawing up a pension plan,

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as well as the reform of the taxation of capital benefits at federal level.

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To conclude, we'll give you some ideas on how to get started today.

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to make your pension provision a key factor in your company's success.

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First of all, it's important to understand what occupational pension provision is,

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our second pillar, an integral part of Switzerland's social insurance system.

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The aim is to maintain the previous standard of living to a large extent.

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With our first pillar, the AVS, the objective is to reach 60% of our last income.

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It has been enshrined in our constitution since 1972.

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It really is part of our legal DNA.

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And since 1985, there has been the Federal Law on Occupational Retirement, Survivors' and Disability Pension Plans,

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LPP (Old Age, Survivors' and Disability Benefit Plan),

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which will define minimum benefits for policyholders

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in the event of old age, death and disability.

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But this law allows provident institutions to

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offer services that go beyond the minimum requirements,

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what are known as over-compulsory benefits.

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It also gives institutions a certain amount of freedom

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in terms of organization and service design.

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Typically, a caisse offers minimum, optimum and maximum plans,

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with a nod to our guest's pension fund,

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but also on how to finance them.

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Hence the importance of knowing these rights and obligations

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as self-employed, employers and employees.

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As a self-employed person, you are under no obligation,

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but taking out 1 gives you a degree of long-term financial security.

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As an employer, you have a legal obligation,

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but by taking over compulsory benefits,

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you can use it as the olive tree of attractiveness, as we said before.

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As an employee, you are in fact dependent on your employer's choices,

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in a way, but you have potential redemptions.

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And to find out what benefits are offered by your pension plan.

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may help you find alternatives to fill the gaps.

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I know that there are a number of entrepreneurs in the room.

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who are in the process of setting up a company.

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I'll tell you exactly how it works.

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Tomorrow, you'll be setting up your own business.

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You'll potentially become your own employer and the employer of others.

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You will therefore need to select a pension fund.

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With it, you can define a pension plan for your employees.

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Secondly, you will announce to these employees

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their age, personal situation and determining salary.

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On this basis, the fund will define the contributions.

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As an employer, you will be responsible for at least 50% of these contributions.

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This is a deductive expense for the company.

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And you will withhold 50% of these contributions from your employee.

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You'll deduct it from his salary and pay it back to the caisse.

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The fund, on the other hand, will invest this money, making it grow to ensure that it has the necessary funds to pay out the benefits it insures.

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But all these contributions are defined according to certain thresholds.

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These thresholds change over time.

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They are based on salary costs, the cost of living and the aging of the population.

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The first diagram clearly shows that the BVG is an integral part of our insurance system,

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which includes AHV, IV, ALA and the third pillar.

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They are interdependent.

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You can see the maximum simple AVS pension in the center.

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If we make 6 eighths of this, we reach the BVG access threshold.

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If we do x3, we have the LPP determining salary.

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To your right, these same figures are presented in table form.

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with a comparison in 2024.

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What's interesting to note is the savings contributions

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which evolve the older you get, the higher they are.

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And yes, the older we get, the more expensive we become.

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And all these contributions, these thresholds will contribute to

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and ensure that pension funds can meet their benefits obligations

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to which they are committed.

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Under the LPP, there are retirement benefits,

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disability benefits, survivors' benefits.

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Unfortunately, we won't have time today to go into detail about all these services.

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We've put a certain number of you in old age,

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which is, of course, the retirement pension at the reference retirement age,

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flexible retirement, early retirement from age 63,

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deferred retirement until age 70, partial retirement.

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And then there's the age-old question of approaching retirement,

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are we going to take our entire pension in the form of a lump sum?

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or as an annuity, or a mix of the two?

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It's important to note that each pension fund has its own specific regulations.

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You need to know and understand the regulations of your pension fund,

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which have their own specific terms and conditions.

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As you will have understood, there is a legal framework that defines the minimum, the LPP,

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but there is the possibility of over-compulsory benefits,

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that we're going to play with, that will structure our plan,

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which are governed by a number of principles that Yves is about to present to us.

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Thank you for your time. Hello everyone. I'm pleased to be able to give you an overview of the main principles of pension planning. As you can imagine, with the limited time

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available, we won't be able to go into too much detail, but nevertheless the idea is that you should already be familiar with these major principles for those who haven't

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Pension planning is a fascinating subject. I'd go so far as to say it's a daily occurrence. The other day, I went to see my dentist, who lives in the Geneva region.

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He bought himself a nice little house. And then, during the discussion, a few minutes before we kept our mouths open for too long, we talked a little about foresight.

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He said, well, I bought myself a nice house, but I'm still a little worried.

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What happens when I reach retirement age?

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Typically, this is the big question.

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As you know, we often take out mortgages, reach retirement age and the organization that lent us the money will say,

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Perhaps now you can no longer afford to meet your obligations and must repay the mortgage within 30 days.

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Foresight, which enables you to obtain, for example, a capital benefit to repay this loan, helps a lot.

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So foresight is a key issue today.

00:19:33.140 --> 00:19:35.160
That was just a small example.

00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:39.760
So we talked about the different pension plans.

00:19:39.760 --> 00:19:46.180
Indeed, it's a factor in attracting talent and retaining key employees.

00:19:46.180 --> 00:19:51.680
So, today, a good pension plan is essential for all companies.

00:19:52.000 --> 00:20:07.080
And, as we said before, even young people today are interested. So it's really important to think about it. There are a number of ways in which we can improve our services.

00:20:07.080 --> 00:20:17.720
I'll give you a few pointers here. Indeed, we can work on covering risks in the event of a guest or death. This may not be the most attractive option.

00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:30.507
The insured salary has also been increased. This has an effect on both the savings and risk components. It is possible to increase savings

00:20:30.415 --> 00:20:39.548
contributions or, for example, decide that the employer should pay a larger share than the employee.

00:20:39.640 --> 00:20:46.020
As we said, it must be at least parity, but the employer can pay more.

00:20:46.020 --> 00:20:53.260
Obviously, there are a lot of possibilities. There's a lot you can do in the field of foresight.

00:20:53.260 --> 00:20:59.060
It depends on several factors. First of all, there's the cost factor for the contractor, for the company.

00:20:59.060 --> 00:21:02.660
Of course, the question of financing needs to be addressed.

00:21:03.500 --> 00:21:13.020
Now, depending on the options we take, well, it can be a plan that is quite favorable, that allows buy-backs, but that won't cost the employer much.

00:21:13.020 --> 00:21:23.358
In fact, I mentioned that we might be talking about capped plans at a later date. In effect, this will enable us to create pension gaps and the

00:21:23.287 --> 00:21:28.349
employee, if he has the means, will be able to make tax-free buy-backs.

00:21:31.620 --> 00:21:41.809
So there you have it. But of course, as I said, there are principles to respect. We'll talk about them a little later. So, for example, we could remove the ceiling. For

00:21:41.749 --> 00:21:50.380
example, instead of starting at age 25, we could say that you start contributing to your savings at age 20, which would inevitably create a gap.

00:21:50.440 --> 00:21:56.700
where, yes, the salary could be higher, but then look at the costs.

00:21:56.700 --> 00:22:05.500
There's plenty of choice. There are pension plans that also leave choices to the employee,

00:22:05.500 --> 00:22:10.540
which means a significant or minimal contribution.

00:22:10.540 --> 00:22:13.200
So there's a lot that's possible.

00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:27.560
It is also possible to set up plans in which the remaining assets are reimbursed if the insured dies shortly after retirement age.

00:22:27.560 --> 00:22:33.320
So, the person retires at 65, term age 68, bad luck, he dies.

00:22:33.320 --> 00:22:43.080
In some cases, pension plans allow the remaining assets to be returned to heirs or beneficiaries.

00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:54.500
So this could be an attractive idea to introduce into a pension plan. After that, it inevitably has an impact on the conversion rate.

00:22:54.500 --> 00:23:08.420
So, what are the main principles to be respected? There's a principle of adequacy, meaning that contributions and benefits must respect certain thresholds.

00:23:08.420 --> 00:23:20.877
It should not be possible for a person to exceed a threshold of 25% in total contributions, or for a person to retire with an income that is almost

00:23:20.793 --> 00:23:26.896
excessive in relation to the salary he or she earned during working life.

00:23:27.900 --> 00:23:38.524
There are also conditions in terms of early retirement and new percentages. The principle of collectivity is perhaps the one we come across

00:23:38.449 --> 00:23:44.025
most often; there's the principle of collectivity or virtual collectivity.

00:23:44.100 --> 00:23:57.447
I'll give you an example later. Once again, you can't create an à la carte pension plan for just one person, who would benefit from perhaps disproportionate

00:23:57.447 --> 00:24:08.260
benefits. Normally, there must be several people who need a pension plan, or at least several people who could benefit from one.

00:24:08.260 --> 00:24:17.189
This is the principle of virtual collectivity. There is also the principle of equal treatment. Obviously, we can't, within the same collective,

00:24:17.127 --> 00:24:23.038
favor certain employees to the detriment of others. And there's also the principle of insurance.

00:24:23.100 --> 00:24:31.640
It's still social insurance, so we have to cover certain risks, such as death and disability.

00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:46.140
When drawing up a pension plan, there are also possibilities for optimizing the situation of the managing shareholder.

00:24:46.140 --> 00:24:51.400
Let's face it, this is also a concern for some people.

00:24:53.100 --> 00:25:06.320
As Vincent told you, buy-ins are deductible. So, if you have a good pension plan, you may be able to create pension gaps and therefore opportunities to make additional payments.

00:25:06.320 --> 00:25:11.320
It's always a good idea to check what the pension plan provides in such cases.

00:25:11.320 --> 00:25:22.320
So, in principle, it's worth making buy-backs. As you probably know, you can deduct 100% of the amount paid into the pension fund.

00:25:22.800 --> 00:25:29.380
So if you have, I don't know, 150,000 francs in income and you buy back 50,000, you're taxed on 100,000.

00:25:29.380 --> 00:25:30.880
It's fantastic.

00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:39.640
However, if this deduction is made at the time of payment, the pension assets will be taxed when they are withdrawn.

00:25:39.640 --> 00:25:43.280
If it's in the form of an annuity, it's taxed along with other income at 100%.

00:25:43.280 --> 00:25:49.760
If it's done in the form of a capital benefit, well then, there's so-called privileged taxation.

00:25:49.760 --> 00:25:51.660
That seems logical enough.

00:25:51.820 --> 00:25:55.820
In the final analysis, you receive a sum of money, which you have to live with.

00:25:55.820 --> 00:26:01.960
Somehow, it's up to you to make the most of it to maintain your lifestyle.

00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:06.600
You now pay wealth tax on this vital service.

00:26:06.600 --> 00:26:11.280
So, it seems quite normal that there should be preferential taxation.

00:26:11.280 --> 00:26:14.380
That's a fifth of the rates, as you know today,

00:26:14.940 --> 00:26:23.140
giving cumulative rates in Geneva of between 2.5% and 8.6%.

00:26:23.140 --> 00:26:26.480
I've put a few examples here.

00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:29.100
So it's definitely worth thinking about,

00:26:29.100 --> 00:26:34.620
but since we're talking about taxing these vital benefits,

00:26:34.620 --> 00:26:41.180
we still have to come to this topical issue of the Federal Council's will

00:26:41.180 --> 00:26:45.980
reform capital gains tax at federal level.

00:26:45.980 --> 00:26:51.220
You've probably seen a number of articles in the press recently.

00:26:51.220 --> 00:26:57.180
As you know, the Confederation is looking for new means of financing.

00:26:57.180 --> 00:27:05.180
One of the avenues explored in the Gaillard report was to increase taxation on capital benefits.

00:27:05.740 --> 00:27:11.940
So these taxes would only be levied at federal level, not at cantonal level.

00:27:11.940 --> 00:27:21.420
This project is obviously a little disruptive because the rules are being changed as the game progresses.

00:27:21.420 --> 00:27:26.460
You've been told to make buy-backs, to save as much as you can for retirement.

00:27:26.460 --> 00:27:30.280
It's tax-efficient if you get a capital benefit.

00:27:30.280 --> 00:27:37.940
And then, in the course of the game, we finally say, when you're going to get this benefit, we're going to deduct a little more tax from you.

00:27:37.940 --> 00:27:39.800
I've given you the rates.

00:27:39.800 --> 00:27:42.820
And these are the rates you can't compare with the ones you had before.

00:27:42.820 --> 00:27:44.920
These are federal rates only.

00:27:44.920 --> 00:27:54.820
So, if we add, if I take the maximum rate, I don't see, we have a little over 30% at cantonal and communal level.

00:27:54.820 --> 00:27:57.820
A fifth of the rates is just over 6%.

00:27:57.820 --> 00:28:08.760
If I take a performance at 10 million francs, at 7.5, if you add the 6%, we'll be more like 13.5.

00:28:08.760 --> 00:28:16.540
But it's starting to cost quite a bit, because we're cutting into your retirement capital.

00:28:16.540 --> 00:28:21.960
So we're cutting into your income and, in a way, the balance for your old age.

00:28:27.040 --> 00:28:36.286
So the consultation procedure ended on May 5. There was an outcry. Personally, I think it's going to be pretty difficult to get it through. But

00:28:36.222 --> 00:28:44.256
nevertheless, the day before yesterday, as you may have seen, the Federal Council decided to maintain this proposal unchanged.

00:28:44.320 --> 00:28:58.920
So, we'll have a vote in Parliament, and no doubt, if Parliament were to vote on this issue, there are already quite a few parties getting worked up about it.

00:28:58.920 --> 00:29:02.920
Just last night, I received an invitation to sign a petition on the subject.

00:29:02.920 --> 00:29:11.240
I'll try to give a small example that I've encountered in my professional life.

00:29:12.540 --> 00:29:18.460
He was someone who had been lucky enough to be able to take over the family business.

00:29:18.460 --> 00:29:28.140
His father had built up this business, which was, it's true, quite successful, but even so, it was his main asset.

00:29:28.140 --> 00:29:39.940
So, somewhere along the line, he needed the resources to continue living, and he and his daughter decided to set up an heirs holding company,

00:29:40.120 --> 00:29:48.180
In other words, a company that was simply going to buy the company from the father at a price that was certainly below its real value.

00:29:48.180 --> 00:29:56.440
And then, thanks to the payment of the purchase price, the father would be able to continue living.

00:29:56.440 --> 00:30:06.740
Very good, indeed. And then the daughter became CEO of the company.

00:30:07.700 --> 00:30:13.720
She was an employee of the operating company and had a big problem.

00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:17.660
The company was valued at several tens of millions.

00:30:17.660 --> 00:30:23.640
With this, she had to pay very substantial taxes, especially wealth tax.

00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:32.880
And she had to receive an equally large income just to pay the tax.

00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:43.704
This obviously poses a philosophical problem, because we're forcing the company to distribute resources when it might have preferred to keep them

00:30:43.641 --> 00:30:49.337
in order to continue investing, especially as it was active in a fairly competitive field.

00:30:49.400 --> 00:30:59.269
So research and development was very important. But, my goodness, taxation sometimes guides certain actions and behaviors. Here,

00:30:59.193 --> 00:31:03.064
there wasn't much choice. She had to receive a lot.

00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:16.316
So obviously, we were consulted to see what solutions we could implement. And one of the avenues we decided to implement was in fact to transfer

00:31:16.230 --> 00:31:23.414
this person's salaried activity to the holding company for confidentiality reasons.

00:31:23.500 --> 00:31:30.180
It's true that HR and the accountant had access to the person's remuneration.

00:31:30.180 --> 00:31:35.760
Besides, we wanted to have a company to manage his salary.

00:31:35.760 --> 00:31:40.320
That way, we could maintain our confidentiality.

00:31:40.320 --> 00:31:43.800
And it wasn't the only measure.

00:31:43.800 --> 00:31:47.460
Obviously, we created a contingency plan.

00:31:47.460 --> 00:31:48.600
That's where it gets interesting.

00:31:48.600 --> 00:31:52.140
We set up a pension plan specifically for her.

00:31:53.140 --> 00:32:01.740
with a sizeable salary, with a pension plan that in fact maximized buybacks.

00:32:01.740 --> 00:32:08.780
So we made the age 20 and above part of the scheme, and removed the ceiling, allowing people to earn up to 900,000 francs in contributory salary.

00:32:08.780 --> 00:32:18.680
We really did pull out all the stops to enable buybacks, which in fact enabled him to make these purchases.

00:32:18.920 --> 00:32:24.460
On the other side of the salary, we paid out fairly substantial dividends.

00:32:24.460 --> 00:32:31.080
As the company's sole shareholder, she benefited from lower taxation on dividends.

00:32:31.080 --> 00:32:36.720
So in the end, she paid less than the 35% withholding tax.

00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:41.720
As you know, 70% of the dividend is used to calculate tax.

00:32:43.560 --> 00:32:50.840
We still had a few stumbling blocks to overcome, notably the principle of collectivity.

00:32:50.840 --> 00:32:55.240
I told you before, you don't have to be the only one in this plan.

00:32:55.240 --> 00:33:05.540
So we also employed a number of people from the operating company at holding level, the CFO, the CTO, and so on.

00:33:05.540 --> 00:33:09.520
As a result, they were no longer alone in this pension plan.

00:33:09.520 --> 00:33:15.140
the collective principle was respected and the plan could work.

00:33:15.140 --> 00:33:23.400
Naturally, the pension plan was submitted to the tax authorities beforehand.

00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:27.140
What's the point? Simply to avoid unpleasant surprises.

00:33:27.140 --> 00:33:31.180
I think it's important for the tax authorities to give their opinion.

00:33:31.180 --> 00:33:37.240
because trustees often work with pension specialists.

00:33:37.880 --> 00:33:45.240
We try to ensure compliance with LPP principles, but also with tax principles.

00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:52.720
It's always better to have a stamp from the tax authorities somewhere, certifying that the plan is compliant.

00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:58.360
Perhaps quickly, there has been some case law in this area,

00:33:58.360 --> 00:34:06.400
in which the tax authorities considered that the pension plan did not comply with the principles.

00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:24.180
There's a well-known case of a dental practice, again dentists, where Mr. and Mrs. were dentists. Very well. And they had set up a pension plan into which they contributed.

00:34:24.180 --> 00:34:30.220
Obviously, there was an entry threshold in terms of salary and there was an entry threshold in terms of age.

00:34:30.220 --> 00:34:32.260
They had employees.

00:34:32.260 --> 00:34:36.200
There was a receptionist, no doubt dental assistants, and so on.

00:34:36.200 --> 00:34:47.440
The problem is that this pension plan, as it has begun, makes it compulsory for people of a certain age to take part,

00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:55.620
It was foreseeable that both dentists would reach retirement age before employees could enter.

00:34:55.620 --> 00:35:07.792
The tax authorities therefore examined the pension plan, found that the collective principle had not been met and declared that the

00:35:07.701 --> 00:35:12.369
contributions were not recognized for tax purposes.

00:35:12.940 --> 00:35:23.365
So, for the company, it's very annoying, this kind of situation, because they've paid contributions, admittedly, as we've just said, in the end,

00:35:23.294 --> 00:35:31.149
they're not recognized as pension contributions, but ultimately, for them, it's still wages paid to employees.

00:35:31.980 --> 00:35:43.287
On the other hand, the most annoying thing is for the employee, who thought he had a net salary at a certain level, and then finally, no, following the intervention of the tax

00:35:43.223 --> 00:35:53.636
authorities, is told no, it's not that level, you have to add the pension contributions for the plan not recognized as salary, so this poses an income tax problem.

00:35:54.340 --> 00:36:00.200
At company level, we can also imagine a tax source problem.

00:36:00.200 --> 00:36:06.720
If employees are subject to withholding tax, it's highly likely that the contribution was inadequate.

00:36:06.720 --> 00:36:22.100
So, in the final analysis, a pension plan is an exciting toy that leaves plenty of scope for optimizing taxation and attracting talent.

00:36:22.100 --> 00:36:32.567
But you can't do just anything. It's advisable to act in advance, perhaps talking to your pension advisor or trustee, who will validate the

00:36:32.493 --> 00:36:39.026
situation and take steps with the tax authorities to ensure that everything is in order.

00:36:42.900 --> 00:36:52.236
So much for my part. There's a lot more to say, obviously, in terms of foresight. Unfortunately, I think we're running out of time. Feel free to ask

00:36:52.174 --> 00:36:57.278
questions afterwards. I think we'll do everything afterwards. Thank you very much.

00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:08.240
Let's just finish up. Now that you're occupational pension specialists, what can you put in place today?

00:37:08.240 --> 00:37:18.260
First of all, you need to analyze your pension plan, look at the costs and benefits offered, and identify any potential gaps or improvements.

00:37:18.260 --> 00:37:22.980
To do this, you need to talk to your pension fund to see how you can optimize the situation.

00:37:22.980 --> 00:37:33.400
In terms of human resources, take advantage of this benefit plan to raise awareness among your employees, in order to build loyalty, and also attract talent when hiring.

00:37:33.400 --> 00:37:43.240
When it comes to payroll management, you need to make sure that you comply with the BVG and pension regulations, in particular by reconciling your payroll management.

00:37:43.240 --> 00:37:53.120
I invite you to make an appointment with my colleague for tax advice to identify tax optimization both at company level and privately via pension provision.

00:37:53.120 --> 00:37:55.340
And finally, retirement planning.

00:37:55.340 --> 00:38:02.780
Make sure the plan we have in place allows us to fulfill our expectations and aspirations for the big vacations.

00:38:02.780 --> 00:38:11.700
As you can see, occupational pension provision, the second pillar, is an essential and necessary part of our social insurance system.

00:38:12.540 --> 00:38:15.800
It is governed by rights and obligations that determine the legal minimum.

00:38:15.800 --> 00:38:20.220
But there are opportunities to structure a plan that will enable us to attract talent,

00:38:20.220 --> 00:38:25.120
retain the right employees, reduce certain risks and optimize tax treatment.

00:38:25.120 --> 00:38:29.360
It's a win-win investment, employee-employer.

00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:32.860
So we're counting on you to make sexy, forward-looking plans.

00:38:32.860 --> 00:38:36.720
and make it a key factor in your company's success.

00:38:36.720 --> 00:38:40.360
If you'd like to get in touch with us, we'd be happy to discuss a range of topical issues,

00:38:40.360 --> 00:38:41.500
thank you for your attention.

00:38:41.700 --> 00:38:51.420
Don't forget, you can, right now,

00:38:51.420 --> 00:38:52.880
I see that some cashiers have already arrived.

00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:54.020
In fact, I'm making amends.

00:38:54.020 --> 00:38:55.140
In fact, the tablet was there.

00:38:55.140 --> 00:38:56.300
Excuse me, control room.

00:38:56.300 --> 00:38:58.520
Thank you very much, gentlemen.

00:38:58.520 --> 00:39:03.000
I'm sure your parents are very proud to see you on stage.

00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:04.060
talking foresight.

00:39:04.060 --> 00:39:05.060
Don't worry.

00:39:05.060 --> 00:39:09.960
We'll now move on to the second presentation.

00:39:10.640 --> 00:39:16.200
I ask Ms Chams FRIAA and Mr Antoine LEFEBVRE to join me on stage.

00:39:16.200 --> 00:39:20.960
to discuss cross-cultural perspectives on compensation in an international context,

00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:23.020
tax and international aspects.

00:39:23.020 --> 00:39:25.920
I'll introduce the two people.

00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:30.860
Chams FRIAA is a director in the international mobility team at KPMG Taxes & Legal in Geneva.

00:39:30.860 --> 00:39:32.040
with over 15 years' experience.

00:39:32.040 --> 00:39:35.320
Its expertise covers all aspects of mobility and compliance

00:39:35.320 --> 00:39:37.420
in the field of international individual taxation.

00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:41.060
Over the course of her career, she has served a wide range of multinationals, as well as SMEs,

00:39:41.060 --> 00:39:45.100
what interests you today, with an emphasis on tax compliance

00:39:45.100 --> 00:39:47.740
and social security in Switzerland, particularly in the Romansh-speaking cantons.

00:39:47.740 --> 00:39:53.740
And then there's Antoine LEFEBVRE, whom I've already had the good fortune to get to know on cross-border work issues,

00:39:53.740 --> 00:39:57.480
an expert in international social insurance,

00:39:57.480 --> 00:40:01.900
Antoine worked for a multinational company in Switzerland and Germany, managing intentional staff mobility,

00:40:01.900 --> 00:40:06.220
also worked in the SIAM employer department,

00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:10.800
As a case manager, dealing with international and complex cases,

00:40:10.800 --> 00:40:13.440
he joined the trotsfrontal pole, the one I was telling you about,

00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:15.940
and international law on July 1, 2024.

00:40:15.940 --> 00:40:17.920
You have the floor. Thank you for your time.

00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:18.620
Merci.

00:40:18.620 --> 00:40:26.340
Here we are. Good morning to you all.

00:40:26.340 --> 00:40:30.580
Today, we're going to look at remuneration in an international context.

00:40:30.580 --> 00:40:34.900
Why talk about this in the context of attracting talent?

00:40:34.900 --> 00:40:43.280
Managing compensation in an international context can be crucial to attracting and retaining talent.

00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:58.480
It's true that this can be a complex subject when it comes to dealing with tax and social issues in an international context.

00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:10.180
In particular, we have tax complexities that can be real traps, since they can lead to situations of double taxation and conflicts of tax residence.

00:41:10.180 --> 00:41:22.560
When we talk about compliance, we're also talking about the social security and labor law aspects that support international mobility and attract talent.

00:41:23.100 --> 00:41:30.740
So today, I'm going to present the tax aspects, while Antoine LEFEBVRE will present the social security aspects.

00:41:30.740 --> 00:41:44.480
As for today's agenda, we're going to introduce these terms, since we're obviously going to be talking about secondment, expatriation and impatriation.

00:41:45.060 --> 00:41:57.380
In the field of taxation and social security, in fact, it's a very vast area, since it involves many different rules from one country to another.

00:41:57.380 --> 00:42:05.065
So it's important here to be able to define the terms for you. Here, we're going to focus on two forms of remuneration: cash remuneration and

00:42:05.012 --> 00:42:09.527
share-based remuneration, so that we can conclude with a few points to bear in mind.

00:42:15.060 --> 00:42:26.997
So, I repeat, as you can see, the key elements to consider are very broad. We deliberately wanted to give you all the aspects that can be seen when putting

00:42:26.921 --> 00:42:35.664
together remuneration juice packages in an international context for situations that may concern SMEs and startups.

00:42:35.740 --> 00:42:46.172
For example, an employee may leave for a customer project lasting two months, three months, six months or a year. And often, the question of taxation and

00:42:46.105 --> 00:42:53.913
social security will arise in relation to the interpretation of bilateral agreements and double taxation situations.

00:42:55.100 --> 00:43:09.400
All this will provide a framework that will enable us to apply remuneration principles based on long-term loyalty, when we define the type of

00:43:09.300 --> 00:43:18.600
remuneration we wish to pay for exceptional employee performance in an international context.

00:43:19.340 --> 00:43:28.060
We're also going to talk about social security standards, since they will have an impact on the employee's net worth.

00:43:28.060 --> 00:43:39.380
How, in fact, could the person remain subject, in fact, to the Swiss tax and social cost rules, if the person were to leave for a few months, in fact, on secondment?

00:43:39.380 --> 00:43:46.380
Or if, vice versa, you decide to hire an employee from abroad with a local Swiss contract?

00:43:49.180 --> 00:43:55.180
First, let's define the different forms of remuneration.

00:43:55.180 --> 00:44:03.900
We've decided to present you with two types of remuneration package, with different perspectives over time.

00:44:03.900 --> 00:44:11.139
To be able to remunerate an employee's performance, either in the short term - that's classic - or in the long term, that's the fixed

00:44:11.085 --> 00:44:15.106
remuneration offered to every worker as part of an employment relationship,

00:44:15.700 --> 00:44:23.504
Or the performance-linked bonus. It's important to remember that these two elements, from a short-term perspective, are

00:44:23.439 --> 00:44:27.115
remuneration elements that pay for immediate performance.

00:44:27.180 --> 00:44:44.540
The second element here is compensation in kind, which takes a much longer-term view, helping to retain talent and combine employee performance with company performance.

00:44:45.020 --> 00:44:48.460
We'll now be able to define these two remuneration elements for you.

00:44:48.460 --> 00:44:56.840
I'll hand over to Antoine to talk about the social security aspect in its various definitions.

00:44:56.840 --> 00:45:00.180
Thank you, Shams. Hello to you all.

00:45:00.180 --> 00:45:05.840
Maybe for you, detachment and expatriation mean more or less the same thing.

00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:13.260
And so that you can understand our presentation, we're really going to compartmentalize and define these different terms.

00:45:13.780 --> 00:45:20.340
So, for us, in terms of social security, secondment means that you are sent abroad for a certain period of time,

00:45:20.340 --> 00:45:23.200
but you'll still be covered by your Swiss social insurance.

00:45:23.200 --> 00:45:28.020
In this case, we use a social security agreement or a European regulation,

00:45:28.020 --> 00:45:33.220
and the AHV fund will issue you with a certificate attesting to this,

00:45:33.220 --> 00:45:37.940
and above all, you're exempt from all social security contributions in the country where you're working.

00:45:37.940 --> 00:45:42.940
Expatriation: your employer will also send you abroad,

00:45:43.380 --> 00:45:44.600
but he's not going to take those steps.

00:45:44.600 --> 00:45:50.120
So you'll be sent abroad, to Dubai, Hong Kong or elsewhere,

00:45:50.120 --> 00:45:56.360
but no steps to become subject to Swiss social insurance

00:45:56.360 --> 00:45:59.040
while going abroad will be made,

00:45:59.040 --> 00:46:01.820
and you will be subject to tax in the host country.

00:46:01.820 --> 00:46:07.820
And finally, impatriation is the hiring of an employee from abroad.

00:46:07.820 --> 00:46:10.980
and will be moving to Switzerland or close to the border.

00:46:12.480 --> 00:46:15.860
I'll give the floor to Chams, who will present the points of attention in taxation.

00:46:15.860 --> 00:46:23.240
So when it comes to taxation, we wanted to talk to you about three aspects to look at.

00:46:23.240 --> 00:46:26.800
As soon as you actually have a collaborator in an international context,

00:46:26.800 --> 00:46:31.720
in the situations described here: secondment, expatriation or impatriation,

00:46:31.720 --> 00:46:38.640
where first you need to look at tax residence, i.e. a person who can move from Switzerland to Germany, for example,

00:46:38.980 --> 00:46:46.520
For a short period, the notion of tax residence will be important, as it will define the basis for tax liability.

00:46:46.520 --> 00:46:52.320
Since moving abroad doesn't necessarily mean losing your tax residence.

00:46:52.320 --> 00:47:00.020
Then we'll get down to the taxing of the bonus or remuneration.

00:47:00.020 --> 00:47:05.800
This will define when the liability begins.

00:47:06.420 --> 00:47:12.960
and by reading bilateral double-taxation agreements, to determine which country will be entitled to tax this income.

00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:19.320
And you, as an employer, will also be concerned, since this may in fact have an impact on your payroll management,

00:47:19.320 --> 00:47:24.180
including your withholding tax obligations, in this case.

00:47:24.180 --> 00:47:31.760
A third aspect is the tax base. We've talked about these two types of performance-related remuneration.

00:47:32.280 --> 00:47:39.680
When we look at the tax base, we look at the period to which the remuneration relates.

00:47:39.680 --> 00:47:46.860
When we talk about a bonus, it can be linked to the performance of the business carried out in the previous year.

00:47:46.860 --> 00:47:54.800
But it really depends on the company's internal policy to define the performance period for the bonus in question.

00:47:55.280 --> 00:47:59.080
That's why reading bilateral agreements is so important,

00:47:59.080 --> 00:48:03.780
for both employer and employee, in an international context.

00:48:03.780 --> 00:48:13.660
We're now going to talk about social security secondments.

00:48:13.660 --> 00:48:16.520
So, you remember, you're sent abroad.

00:48:16.520 --> 00:48:20.320
This time, we'll be looking at the European Union and EFTA countries,

00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:24.280
for a fixed period, with a return target.

00:48:25.220 --> 00:48:30.220
The important thing to remember is that if you are a citizen of Switzerland, the European Union or an EFTA state,

00:48:30.220 --> 00:48:35.260
ask your employer, or if you are the employer, ask your CASAVS

00:48:35.260 --> 00:48:39.120
an A1 certificate of secondment, even for one day.

00:48:39.120 --> 00:48:41.800
So, of course, it's quite heavy to do it for a day,

00:48:41.800 --> 00:48:45.920
but in principle, it's important to remember that you have a role to play as an employer.

00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:50.420
ask CASAVS for an A1 secondment certificate.

00:48:50.420 --> 00:48:56.780
is the application of Article 12 of the Regulation on the coordination of social insurance systems.

00:48:56.780 --> 00:49:04.660
Now, if you are a citizen of another nationality or are going to be sent to a treaty country,

00:49:04.660 --> 00:49:11.140
we will apply the social security agreement between the two countries, between Switzerland and the United States for example,

00:49:11.140 --> 00:49:14.640
or if you're sending an American employee to France,

00:49:14.640 --> 00:49:18.420
we will apply the social security agreement between France and Switzerland.

00:49:18.820 --> 00:49:24.100
We won't go into detail about the conditions of posting, but they're more or less the same as for the European regulation.

00:49:24.100 --> 00:49:31.240
And if now you're sent to a non-treaty country, like I told you, Dubai, Hong Kong, what's going to happen?

00:49:31.240 --> 00:49:37.255
If you are a resident of Switzerland and you maintain residence in Switzerland, you don't need to take any steps, as you will continue to be

00:49:37.213 --> 00:49:40.178
covered by Swiss social insurance schemes via your place of residence.

00:49:40.460 --> 00:49:51.762
On the other hand, if you are not resident in Switzerland, for example, your employee is a cross-border commuter, resident in France, or you are going to be away for a long

00:49:51.697 --> 00:50:02.415
period of time - you're going to Dubai for two years - you can apply for continuation of insurance, i.e. continuation of first-pillar, second-pillar, etc. insurance.

00:50:03.480 --> 00:50:11.785
But it's more restrictive than the various conditions for secondment, in that instead of asking for one month's contributions to the AVS, i.e. one month's

00:50:11.731 --> 00:50:17.906
contributions to the first pillar, you'll be asked for 5 years of continuous service immediately prior to departure.

00:50:17.960 --> 00:50:27.311
And don't forget that social security agreements and the European coordination regulation allow you to be exempted from social security

00:50:27.243 --> 00:50:32.772
contributions in the host country, which is not the case for continued insurance.

00:50:32.840 --> 00:50:38.780
So, if there is a compulsory system in place in the host country, you will be able to contribute twice as much.

00:50:38.780 --> 00:50:40.840
So, beware of accumulating charges.

00:50:40.840 --> 00:50:47.320
I'll now hand over to Chams, who will talk about cash remuneration and the tax treatment of bonuses.

00:50:47.320 --> 00:50:57.480
So, in taxation, we're going to talk about a principle of acquisition here around income from a lucrative activity for, in fact, for example,

00:50:57.480 --> 00:51:05.100
a Swiss tax resident moving to France for a fixed or indefinite period,

00:51:05.100 --> 00:51:13.560
we're going to look at the principle of acquisition to see how taxation can be structured,

00:51:13.560 --> 00:51:20.240
in particular with double taxation agreements. And always with the three elements I presented earlier,

00:51:20.240 --> 00:51:26.420
tax residence, time of taxation, time income is received and tax base

00:51:26.420 --> 00:51:37.620
which will relate to the performance period at which the bonus or remuneration that you, as the employer, have decided to give will be considered taxable or not.

00:51:37.620 --> 00:51:47.800
It's important to know that there are Swiss resident workers in this situation, with a bonus to reward performance.

00:51:47.800 --> 00:51:59.480
If any part of it relates to a foreign activity, the various conditions of bilateral treaties must be taken into account to determine the right to tax.

00:51:59.480 --> 00:52:05.480
We often talk about the 183-day rule, a term I imagine you've heard before.

00:52:05.480 --> 00:52:15.800
Often, we indicate that, if, in fact, the person spends less or more than 183 days in a country, in fact, the country of destination, there, in what kind of France?

00:52:16.020 --> 00:52:27.420
We also have another criterion, which is the principle of the de facto employer, to consider whether a de facto employer will be considered in France.

00:52:27.420 --> 00:52:30.440
And the third condition is salary top-up.

00:52:30.440 --> 00:52:37.860
If, for example, you're an SME and you decide to send an employee to France to work for a group subsidiary,

00:52:37.860 --> 00:52:44.960
we'll be in a situation where, if you have a salary top-up, taxation could be triggered in the destination country.

00:52:44.960 --> 00:52:55.815
These are often the three criteria we observe in terms of taxation. But it's always important to bear in mind that the first thing to look at is the residency

00:52:55.747 --> 00:53:03.752
angle, which will govern the rules of taxation, i.e. who has the right to tax a temporary activity in another country.

00:53:03.820 --> 00:53:11.480
I'll let Antoine talk about social security.

00:53:11.980 --> 00:53:18.800
So, in terms of social security, do bonuses count as wages subject to social security contributions?

00:53:18.800 --> 00:53:23.700
Yes, according to article 7, letter A, RAVS, it's part of the salary.

00:53:23.700 --> 00:53:26.820
Now, in an international context, what are we going to do?

00:53:26.820 --> 00:53:31.700
We'll take a look at the bonus liability period.

00:53:31.700 --> 00:53:37.460
So the bonus, for example, goes back to 2023.

00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:44.440
We'll be looking to see whether, in 2023, the person was covered by the AVS, i.e. covered by Swiss social security contributions.

00:53:44.440 --> 00:53:51.660
We looked at the guidelines on the determining salary and the guidelines on the collection of contributions.

00:53:51.660 --> 00:53:55.000
So these are directives from the Federal Social Insurance Office.

00:53:55.000 --> 00:54:04.520
Then, in these guidelines, we are told that, in an international context, it is appropriate to examine the application of insurance risk assessment requirements,

00:54:04.660 --> 00:54:14.360
So, the AHV insurance, as I told you, whether a subsequent salary payment is to be fully or only proportionally taxed in Switzerland.

00:54:14.360 --> 00:54:19.320
So Shams and I said to each other, very well, there's a link with taxes.

00:54:19.320 --> 00:54:25.220
Then I came along and said, but be careful, the link with taxes, for me it's the contribution to the AVS.

00:54:25.220 --> 00:54:31.560
So there's a problem. Let's have a look at what's written in German and Italian.

00:54:31.720 --> 00:54:33.420
And in fact, it's a translation error.

00:54:33.420 --> 00:54:36.440
So the important thing to remember is that these are really two autonomous rights.

00:54:36.440 --> 00:54:41.460
And we'll be looking at AVS contributions, i.e. social security contributions.

00:54:41.460 --> 00:54:46.180
And we're not going to look at whether or not it should be taxed in Switzerland.

00:54:46.180 --> 00:54:48.600
So, Charles, this is going to present you with a practical case.

00:54:48.600 --> 00:54:50.180
It will be much more enlightening for you.

00:54:50.180 --> 00:54:53.300
On impatriation.

00:54:53.300 --> 00:55:00.980
On the subject of impatriation, here we're going to talk about a practical case with a state of affairs that may seem fairly straightforward here.

00:55:00.980 --> 00:55:03.940
just to give you an idea of the impatriation situation.

00:55:03.940 --> 00:55:09.500
For an SME, in fact, it can be considered as a situation of

00:55:09.500 --> 00:55:13.900
where the person is an employee of a Swiss group working in Germany,

00:55:13.900 --> 00:55:17.020
subject to German tax until June 30, 2024.

00:55:17.020 --> 00:55:21.980
In fact, she decided to move to Switzerland on July 1, 2024,

00:55:21.980 --> 00:55:26.000
hired by the Swiss parent company,

00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:30.400
and becomes a Swiss tax resident at that time,

00:55:30.620 --> 00:55:38.300
since the person will in fact meet the criteria of Swiss domestic law to be considered a Swiss tax resident.

00:55:38.300 --> 00:55:46.940
On June 1, 2025, a bonus relating to the 2024 activity is paid in full by the Swiss company here.

00:55:46.940 --> 00:55:54.060
So, in fact, 100% of the bonus will be paid to employees here.

00:55:54.060 --> 00:55:57.780
So the tax question, the social question, is going to come up.

00:55:58.320 --> 00:56:08.540
For the social question, we'll start from the fact that this person is of German nationality, and therefore subject to employment tax at source here in the canton of Geneva.

00:56:08.540 --> 00:56:19.920
We will therefore be taxed in Switzerland only on the portion attributable to the working day spent in Switzerland between July 1, 2024 and December 31, 2024.

00:56:20.240 --> 00:56:26.420
The current directives will enable us to tax only what we consider to be Swiss sources.

00:56:26.420 --> 00:56:36.980
And we'll take the rest, half of this bonus, from German sources, and exempt it from withholding tax.

00:56:36.980 --> 00:56:44.920
In particular, payroll and withholding tax directives provide a way of correctly declaring these aspects.

00:56:46.200 --> 00:56:51.280
Then, as for the German tax, we're not talking about that here, since today we're really focusing on the Swiss rules.

00:56:51.280 --> 00:56:57.220
It will be important to understand taxation in Germany, since the person is under a Swiss payroll system.

00:56:57.220 --> 00:57:01.120
So to understand how much German tax is due on the other part of the bonus.

00:57:01.120 --> 00:57:10.900
In terms of social security, we'll be looking at social security liability in 2024, the reference year for the bonus.

00:57:10.900 --> 00:57:16.020
So in 2024, half the year is worked in Germany.

00:57:16.200 --> 00:57:17.980
therefore subject to social security fines,

00:57:17.980 --> 00:57:22.620
and the other half of the year, the person is subject to Swiss social insurance.

00:57:22.620 --> 00:57:26.740
So the employer who pays this bonus in 2025,

00:57:26.740 --> 00:57:31.720
he will pay this bonus at the 2025 rate and cap,

00:57:31.720 --> 00:57:35.860
we're going to record on the person's individual account for the year 2025,

00:57:35.860 --> 00:57:37.800
but only half the bonus,

00:57:37.800 --> 00:57:43.340
since half the year is spent on Swiss social insurance,

00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:47.880
the other half will be subject to German social insurance.

00:57:47.880 --> 00:57:52.840
I'm now going to give you another case study, but in the case of a secondment.

00:57:52.840 --> 00:57:58.280
So this time, it's a resident of Switzerland who will be sent to Germany.

00:57:58.280 --> 00:58:03.700
The employer requests an A1 secondment certificate from his AHV fund

00:58:03.700 --> 00:58:08.260
for half the year, so always half the year in Germany.

00:58:08.260 --> 00:58:11.680
For the other half of the year, he will return to Switzerland,

00:58:12.260 --> 00:58:21.560
therefore remain insured under Swiss social insurance schemes and receive the bonus for the year 2024 as of June 1, 2025.

00:58:21.560 --> 00:58:25.380
I'm going to talk about the tax side, and then I'll tell you about the social side.

00:58:25.380 --> 00:58:33.600
As far as taxation is concerned, what will change here is that we're really in a temporary secondment situation.

00:58:33.600 --> 00:58:39.340
and it's the articulation of what's known as the editor's clause, which I explained to you with the three conditions.

00:58:39.940 --> 00:58:45.100
Will the person spend more than 183 days in the destination country?

00:58:45.100 --> 00:58:50.720
The party employer criterion and the remuneration recharge criterion.

00:58:50.720 --> 00:58:55.900
In this case, given the state of the party, we will consider that taxation remains in Switzerland.

00:58:55.900 --> 00:58:59.800
since all three cumulative conditions are met.

00:58:59.800 --> 00:59:09.820
We have a situation where the taxable portion of the bonus remains related to the activity.

00:59:09.820 --> 00:59:16.180
also abroad, so we're actually referring to the elements here too, but it's worthwhile

00:59:16.180 --> 00:59:23.860
here to specify that, as things stand, these conditions are not met. For the

00:59:23.860 --> 00:59:30.440
It's quite simple: you send your child to Germany for six months with an A1 certificate.

00:59:30.440 --> 00:59:36.440
for example, you have to pay social security contributions in Germany, so you pay your bonus in 2025 at the following rates

00:59:36.440 --> 00:59:42.780
and ceiling 2025 and the full bonus, since during the part of the work performed in Germany,

00:59:42.780 --> 00:59:50.220
he is exempt from German social security contributions, he had to pay his social security contributions in Switzerland.

00:59:50.220 --> 00:59:55.560
Here, I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that, let's imagine that this person, right now,

00:59:55.560 --> 01:00:01.660
she stops working in 2024. She receives her bonus in 2025, and is resident in Switzerland,

01:00:02.380 --> 01:00:07.600
His or her spouse does not contribute to Swiss social insurance schemes or is not married.

01:00:07.600 --> 01:00:16.573
He hasn't reached retirement age yet, and he says to himself, "Anyway, I'll be collecting my bonus in 2025, so it's certainly subject to

01:00:16.508 --> 01:00:21.775
contributions, so I'm not going to worry about my social security contributions".

01:00:21.840 --> 01:00:33.140
Now, I told you, if he had been an employee of the company in 2025, we would have put it on his individual account in 2025.

01:00:33.140 --> 01:00:36.480
Except he's not working for the company in 2025.

01:00:36.480 --> 01:00:42.360
So the employer will declare the salary for the year 2024.

01:00:42.360 --> 01:00:51.540
So in 2025, even if he receives his bonus for the AHV funds, i.e. the pension fund, we won't actually see him.

01:00:51.620 --> 01:00:53.040
We'll see in 2024.

01:00:53.040 --> 01:00:57.580
So in 2025, he has to worry about his social situation.

01:00:57.580 --> 01:01:01.620
and maybe he'll have to register as a person without gainful employment

01:01:01.620 --> 01:01:06.380
and pay social security contributions if not working, if resident in Switzerland,

01:01:06.380 --> 01:01:08.700
even if he receives a bonus in 2025.

01:01:08.700 --> 01:01:12.020
It will be collected in 2025, except that it will be recorded in 2024.

01:01:12.020 --> 01:01:14.860
So by 2025, he needs to be concerned about his situation.

01:01:14.860 --> 01:01:19.060
And unfortunately, some people receive bonuses over several years.

01:01:19.060 --> 01:01:22.820
and who don't go to work because this bonus allows them to live.

01:01:22.820 --> 01:01:29.440
So they're not going to worry about their pension fund situation.

01:01:29.440 --> 01:01:32.900
Except that the AHV fund can go back five years.

01:01:32.900 --> 01:01:35.580
So, in the event of an inspection, if it ever comes to light, etc., we'll be able to keep an eye on you.

01:01:35.580 --> 01:01:42.240
We can go back over the last five years and ask you to pay contributions as a person not in gainful employment.

01:01:43.220 --> 01:01:52.100
I'm going to give the floor back to Shams for benefits in kind in the event of impatriation.

01:01:52.100 --> 01:02:02.080
So here, we deliberately wanted to give you this tax system that exists in an impatriation or expatriation situation.

01:02:03.240 --> 01:02:12.026
So, there is in fact a tax regime under the ordinance known as O-Expa, Ordonnance des expatriés, which in fact allows you to obtain tax

01:02:12.026 --> 01:02:16.580
deductions when you are in fact an expatriate executive in Switzerland.

01:02:16.580 --> 01:02:29.020
But it's actually possible for specialists too. So it's not just for people who are in an executive or expatriate situation.

01:02:29.400 --> 01:02:34.920
It is possible, in fact, to obtain the definition of expatriate status for a local employee.

01:02:34.920 --> 01:02:42.880
To achieve this, we have set out the various conditions that will enable you, as an employer, to hire an executive from abroad.

01:02:42.880 --> 01:02:48.780
to be able, in fact, to put together a package that could be attractive in facilitating international mobility,

01:02:48.780 --> 01:02:56.400
for example, to be able to offer him moving expenses, a mobility allowance, housing costs, in fact,

01:02:56.920 --> 01:03:02.300
in relation to dual residence costs, if the person has in fact maintained residence in his or her country of origin.

01:03:02.300 --> 01:03:11.180
There is, in fact, this system, and we've given you a brief overview of it here, since it's a vast field, a fairly broad subject,

01:03:11.180 --> 01:03:17.500
here are the deductions that are actually available here, at federal level, with the various conditions that may exist,

01:03:17.500 --> 01:03:24.860
and at cantonal and communal level, since the canton of Geneva applies it to support the canton's attractiveness.

01:03:24.860 --> 01:03:32.840
in this context, in fact, to be able to have the commitment, in fact, of talent, here, in the canton of Geneva.

01:03:32.840 --> 01:03:44.220
As for the social aspect, we won't go into too much detail, as we're also pressed for time,

01:03:44.220 --> 01:03:48.420
but what we need to remember is that, once again, tax and social security are two autonomous rights.

01:03:48.420 --> 01:03:59.044
In social terms, what we'll be looking at is whether it's a benefit in kind subject to contributions, or whether it's part of the

01:03:58.963 --> 01:04:04.559
compulsory costs essential for carrying out the work, i.e. overheads.

01:04:04.640 --> 01:04:13.080
If it's overheads, either you reimburse them with the actual costs, under our two costs, or you can also make a flat-rate payment.

01:04:13.080 --> 01:04:26.028
But the package must be justifiable. So you can't say you're going to get so much for expatriation and not be able to justify it. It has to be necessary for the activity. As

01:04:25.954 --> 01:04:37.866
for benefits in kind, the AVS fund, and once again the pension fund, will be responsible for assessing the amount to be subject to social security contributions.

01:04:39.940 --> 01:04:53.580
There's also a difference between the social and tax aspects: on the social level, we accept the same costs whether a person is seconded abroad or impatriated.

01:04:53.580 --> 01:05:05.678
For example, moving expenses. If you ever have to leave, for example the person who went to Germany for six months, moving expenses are not subject to social security

01:05:05.606 --> 01:05:17.128
contributions, but also if you hire a person who comes from Paris or London, for example, he or she will move to Switzerland or close to the border, no problem.

01:05:17.200 --> 01:05:20.360
it's not subject to social security contributions, it's a general expense.

01:05:20.360 --> 01:05:26.440
We have also compiled a non-exhaustive list of case law.

01:05:26.440 --> 01:05:29.620
on the other hand, are subject to social security contributions.

01:05:29.620 --> 01:05:35.660
One difference with Oexpa is the tuition fees for private schools.

01:05:35.660 --> 01:05:37.800
This is subject to social security contributions.

01:05:37.800 --> 01:05:45.320
So just because it's tax-free doesn't mean it won't be subject to social security contributions.

01:05:47.200 --> 01:05:51.840
I'll give the floor to Chams this time for the title remunerations.

01:05:51.840 --> 01:05:55.700
This time, let's take a look at remuneration for participation rights.

01:05:55.700 --> 01:06:03.940
Here, we're talking about title compensation, which is more of a long-term objective, as we said,

01:06:03.940 --> 01:06:08.160
which will cross-reference the employee's performance with the company's performance.

01:06:08.160 --> 01:06:15.860
So, here, in this subject, you need to know that managing employee shareholdings in an international context,

01:06:16.500 --> 01:06:22.880
In fact, Switzerland has a very clear framework for the taxation of employee shareholdings.

01:06:22.880 --> 01:06:32.980
It may seem complex, but there are various directives and ordinances that enable all these rules to be put into practice in an international context.

01:06:32.980 --> 01:06:40.960
This is a subject that my colleague presented last year on how to set up employee shareholding plans,

01:06:41.060 --> 01:06:52.560
since this is the first step, to set up the employee shareholding plan and then define the various shareholding right vehicles that exist,

01:06:52.560 --> 01:07:02.000
which will be adapted to the company's activity, in order to build loyalty among executives within the framework of these profit-sharing rights.

01:07:02.500 --> 01:07:13.660
It's important to know that here, we've listed the main ones that we see, in fact, both within multinational groups, but also in SMEs and start-ups.

01:07:13.660 --> 01:07:21.808
There are many participation plans on offer. Why is that? Because it's going to allow us to have a diversity of remuneration, since each

01:07:21.749 --> 01:07:24.701
generation, sometimes even, is a little sensitive.

01:07:24.880 --> 01:07:28.760
We were talking earlier about occupational pensions, which can be sensitive to any generation.

01:07:28.760 --> 01:07:33.420
Participation plans also apply to everyone.

01:07:33.420 --> 01:07:36.920
And it's possible to launch a participation plan.

01:07:36.920 --> 01:07:49.700
And whether you're a listed company or not, there really is this tool, this toolbox, as they say, which is used for remuneration, which is employee rights, participation rights.

01:07:49.700 --> 01:07:54.560
It's important to know, however, that there are several types of participation rights.

01:07:54.880 --> 01:08:03.220
which may exist, are blocked shares, where there is a blocking period during which the employee does not have disposal of the share.

01:08:03.220 --> 01:08:08.160
Stock options and restricted stock units are based on the same principle.

01:08:08.160 --> 01:08:21.060
Here, just to give you a visual idea, we've listed the different tax periods and taxable values, a vast subject.

01:08:21.060 --> 01:08:31.141
The aim is just to give you indications by type of remuneration. As for the tax period, it's always the same. We'll be looking at the tax residence, the

01:08:31.011 --> 01:08:40.442
time of taxation and the taxable base, because here, on participation rights, it's even more important to look at performance, since you can have

01:08:40.442 --> 01:08:44.930
tax times that may be different for each type of participation right.

01:08:45.420 --> 01:08:53.320
In Switzerland, we have a clear legal framework. In other countries, it's important to realize that the timing of taxation in relation to participation rights may be different.

01:08:53.320 --> 01:09:04.340
That's why, in an international context, it's important, as an employer, to be informed so as to take a proactive approach when using this type of remuneration package.

01:09:08.680 --> 01:09:17.940
In terms of social security, this time the social aspect follows the tax aspect in determining the value and timing of collection.

01:09:17.940 --> 01:09:22.600
I won't go into detail, because Shams is a far greater expert than I am.

01:09:22.600 --> 01:09:29.260
However, there's a difference with the tax system, and that's the social security system,

01:09:29.260 --> 01:09:32.200
we'll look at the vesting period,

01:09:32.200 --> 01:09:37.940
then we'll be able to subject it to social security contributions.

01:09:38.680 --> 01:09:45.600
And we're not going to look at the gap between vesting and exercise or realization.

01:09:45.600 --> 01:09:48.100
We'll give you a practical example.

01:09:48.100 --> 01:09:52.700
I'm going to give you a case study that will be much more meaningful for you.

01:09:52.700 --> 01:09:59.680
So here, still in a visual, in this case temporal, since as I said, the performance period,

01:09:59.680 --> 01:10:03.740
the event at the time considered taxable, may be different.

01:10:03.740 --> 01:10:14.498
We're going to talk about an employee who lived and worked in Switzerland in 2018. He receives stock options, stock options with a vesting period,

01:10:14.425 --> 01:10:20.967
because often in performance plans, there are a lot of Anglo-Saxon concepts that are used.

01:10:21.040 --> 01:10:30.806
But here, we're going to bet on a blocking period, i.e. we have an option, we're in 2018, and it's only in 2022, in fact, after the blocking period,

01:10:30.741 --> 01:10:36.015
that the employee will be able to exercise his right to acquire the share or not.

01:10:36.080 --> 01:10:40.600
And it remains, depending on the plan, a period, in fact, that can be defined by the plan.

01:10:40.600 --> 01:10:49.940
In fact, during this period, between 2018 and 2022, in 2019 and 2020, the person goes on secondment to France for two years.

01:10:49.940 --> 01:10:58.994
We're talking here about a secondment for social security purposes. She's going to break her tax residence, she's going to leave Switzerland. Once again, another

01:10:58.939 --> 01:11:06.605
professional opportunity, the person moves from France to Hong Kong. In this case, there is no continuation of the Swiss insurance system.

01:11:07.060 --> 01:11:16.347
In 2022, employees will return to Switzerland with the same employer who allocated their participation rights. The blocking period is

01:11:16.278 --> 01:11:21.231
therefore over, and employees will now be able to exercise their rights.

01:11:21.300 --> 01:11:30.042
And they decide, depending, I imagine, on the share price, because that can have an impact on the decision, to exercise their right in

01:11:29.978 --> 01:11:34.156
2025, three years later, here, to be able to realize this income.

01:11:37.060 --> 01:11:46.860
From a tax point of view, we've already explained how taxation works, so it's always the same thing: analysis of the reference periods for these stock options.

01:11:46.860 --> 01:11:55.095
Or here we're going to have an international distribution of income. Why is this? We always refer to the blocking period, the

01:11:55.030 --> 01:11:58.855
performance period to which the participation right refers.

01:11:58.920 --> 01:12:10.001
One year in Switzerland will be considered as taxable in Switzerland. In the situation where, in 2025, the person is a Swiss tax resident, depending on his or

01:12:09.932 --> 01:12:18.451
her tax regime, 25% will be considered Swiss-source, taxable at ordinary time or at source, depending on his or her regime.

01:12:18.660 --> 01:12:27.140
And we actually have a deferral for the income rate of up to 75,000 francs, which corresponds to periods of performance abroad.

01:12:27.140 --> 01:12:34.100
Since double taxation agreements have been signed between Switzerland and Hong Kong, Switzerland and France,

01:12:34.100 --> 01:12:38.140
only Switzerland has the right to tax the portion of Swiss sources.

01:12:38.140 --> 01:12:42.920
For the social aspect, let me come back to the graph.

01:12:42.920 --> 01:12:47.460
So we're going to look at the vesting period, during the lock-up period.

01:12:47.460 --> 01:12:54.472
So, in 2018, he is subject to Swiss social insurance, in 2019-2020 he is also subject to Swiss social insurance, since he has an A1 certificate attesting to

01:12:54.428 --> 01:12:59.976
this, and in 2021, he leaves for Hong Kong without continuation of insurance, so he is not subject to Swiss social insurance.

01:13:00.020 --> 01:13:10.843
In this case, as he is still employed by the employer in 2025, the employer will declare the salary for the year 2025, but only for three quarters

01:13:10.770 --> 01:13:16.547
of it, i.e. for the three years of liability and not for the year in Hong Kong.

01:13:16.620 --> 01:13:20.100
So for the Hong Kong year, we'll have to check Hong Kong law.

01:13:20.100 --> 01:13:30.700
Now, the same example, but this time, in 2022, the contractual relationship with the company comes to an end.

01:13:30.700 --> 01:13:40.019
So he's going to stay in Hong Kong, he's going to develop the Asian market, there's a subsidiary in Hong Kong and this person is staying

01:13:39.951 --> 01:13:43.192
there, so he's staying resident in this country.

01:13:46.000 --> 01:13:53.080
From a tax point of view, the big difference here with this example is that in 2025, the person has the tax non-residents of Switzerland.

01:13:53.080 --> 01:14:04.000
Fortunately, we have a system in Switzerland that simplifies the taxation of items considered to be Swiss-sourced, such as participation rights,

01:14:04.000 --> 01:14:10.800
with taxation at a fixed rate of 31.5 for an employer in the canton of Geneva,

01:14:10.800 --> 01:14:14.380
and will only be on the part of Swiss sources.

01:14:14.380 --> 01:14:20.500
In this case, the employer will be obliged to deduct tax in Switzerland.

01:14:20.500 --> 01:14:24.100
on the portion of the cost relating to the activity carried out in Switzerland.

01:14:24.100 --> 01:14:27.200
We're still talking about 25% of income, in this case,

01:14:27.200 --> 01:14:31.320
because we still have a performance year coming up in Switzerland.

01:14:31.320 --> 01:14:34.120
And then, the rest is not about Switzerland.

01:14:34.120 --> 01:14:36.280
That's why it's important, as an employer,

01:14:36.280 --> 01:14:39.600
to be well informed about reporting obligations

01:14:39.600 --> 01:14:49.460
which may exist in the country of destination, since even if the parent company is Swiss, it has the right to participate,

01:14:49.460 --> 01:14:56.900
who granted the right to participate, it's important to understand the rules in the country, the person where she's resident.

01:14:56.900 --> 01:15:02.840
And finally, the social aspect, once again we see the period of subjection,

01:15:03.020 --> 01:15:06.320
This means that he will have to pay Swiss social security contributions for three years,

01:15:06.320 --> 01:15:12.800
except that in 2025, he is no longer an employee of the Swiss company and is resident in Hong Kong.

01:15:12.800 --> 01:15:20.360
The employer should therefore declare this salary for the last fiscal year.

01:15:20.360 --> 01:15:25.420
So, the last year of exercise is in 2021 when he was in Hong Kong.

01:15:25.420 --> 01:15:28.900
Except that in Hong Kong, he was not covered by Swiss social insurance.

01:15:28.900 --> 01:15:32.840
So, let's go back to the year before, 2020.

01:15:33.020 --> 01:15:48.940
So the employer, even if the period of realization is in 2025, the employee will see himself attributed and therefore declare his income for the AVS, for his retirement in 2020.

01:15:48.940 --> 01:16:02.780
It's also possible to declare, so divided by 3, I think that's 25,000 per year, so 25,000 in 2020 with the rates and ceilings for those years.

01:16:02.780 --> 01:16:07.460
So let's finish with a few points of attention.

01:16:11.720 --> 01:16:21.220
So, still in relation to these particular points of attention in terms of taxation, these incentives will compensate, as we said, for performance over a period of time.

01:16:21.220 --> 01:16:28.708
That's why it's so important to define the rules internally, i.e. to be able to indicate, particularly from a contractual point of view,

01:16:28.653 --> 01:16:32.125
the performance period to which a bonus will refer, for example,

01:16:32.180 --> 01:16:43.725
As soon as you have an international situation, as soon as you have an employee who is going to move outside Switzerland, you need to be aware that

01:16:43.647 --> 01:16:51.782
employees who are mobile on a global scale have a tax exposure that may be the case in several countries.

01:16:51.860 --> 01:16:57.300
So, as an employer, it's important to be aware of all these rules.

01:16:57.300 --> 01:17:05.640
It's a complex business, but fortunately Switzerland has a very broad network of bilateral tax and social security agreements,

01:17:05.640 --> 01:17:11.260
to avoid tax traps and double taxation.

01:17:11.260 --> 01:17:19.400
So, as we were saying, taxation can vary from one country to another in relation to participation rights,

01:17:19.400 --> 01:17:25.760
and even in relation to these participation rights under Swiss law, since they are very different.

01:17:25.760 --> 01:17:30.800
And it's always the same thing, the points of attention, at what point does taxation come into play,

01:17:30.800 --> 01:17:34.480
the amount to be taxed and the period to which it refers.

01:17:34.480 --> 01:17:42.800
So it's important to know that the international allowance will help avoid situations of economic double taxation.

01:17:42.800 --> 01:17:45.400
where bilateral agreements exist.

01:17:47.460 --> 01:17:57.916
As for social security, you need to check whether there are any social security agreements, and whether the European regulations apply. You need to check the

01:17:57.786 --> 01:18:07.720
employee's nationality, the scope of application, i.e. the different branches of insurance covered by these agreements, the period of insurance and also

01:18:07.720 --> 01:18:16.870
differentiate between what is subject to contributions and what is not, overheads, benefits in kind and, if in doubt, contact your AVS fund.

01:18:17.000 --> 01:18:24.500
Just because you pay an amount in 2025 doesn't mean you have to declare it for that year, and the social side doesn't follow the tax side.

01:18:24.500 --> 01:18:31.620
For the conclusion, Chams.

01:18:31.620 --> 01:18:33.960
And that brings us to the conclusion.

01:18:33.960 --> 01:18:40.480
So the important thing to remember is that managing compensation in an international context should not be seen as an obstacle,

01:18:40.480 --> 01:18:47.840
but rather an opportunity to take advantage of the different tax and social security regimes that may exist.

01:18:47.840 --> 01:18:55.540
So let me remind you, I've explained the expatriate regime in particular, which can be used in Switzerland.

01:18:55.540 --> 01:19:05.620
It really does enable you, as an employer, to put together an attractive package.

01:19:05.620 --> 01:19:09.700
Obviously, these rules of interpretation are complex.

01:19:09.700 --> 01:19:18.899
As Antoine pointed out, tax law doesn't necessarily follow social law and vice-versa, so as they are autonomous rights, there are

01:19:18.829 --> 01:19:22.410
rules that provide a clear and practical framework.

01:19:22.480 --> 01:19:32.123
This will enable you, as an employer, to take a strategic approach to the creation of compensation packages for your employees, which

01:19:32.051 --> 01:19:35.408
will also enable you to protect your employees.

01:19:36.480 --> 01:19:39.680
So here, adopt a proactive and well-informed approach

01:19:39.680 --> 01:19:41.700
will enable you to position yourself well as an employer

01:19:41.700 --> 01:19:44.020
to attract and retain talent.

01:19:44.020 --> 01:19:45.800
Thank you for your attention.

01:19:45.800 --> 01:19:47.320
Merci.

01:19:47.320 --> 01:20:01.400
Thank you very much for this trip, in every sense of the word,

01:20:01.400 --> 01:20:04.420
in taxation, social insurance and abroad.

01:20:05.240 --> 01:20:09.140
It was exciting and vast.

01:20:09.140 --> 01:20:12.520
I'd now like to invite our final speaker,

01:20:12.520 --> 01:20:14.460
Mr Kevin BOTI, to take the stage.

01:20:14.460 --> 01:20:20.420
With him, we'll explore the challenges of transparency

01:20:20.420 --> 01:20:21.900
and its impact.

01:20:21.900 --> 01:20:24.640
Short presentation by Mr BOTI,

01:20:24.640 --> 01:20:28.660
manager in the People and Organization department of PwC Switzerland.

01:20:28.660 --> 01:20:31.380
15 years' experience in human resources management

01:20:31.380 --> 01:20:32.680
and organizational development.

01:20:32.680 --> 01:20:34.780
It supports public and private organizations

01:20:34.780 --> 01:20:37.160
in defining and implementing HR strategies,

01:20:37.160 --> 01:20:41.100
structural reforms and assessment and transformation projects.

01:20:41.100 --> 01:20:44.880
Master's degree in organizational development from the University of Pennsylvania,

01:20:44.880 --> 01:20:46.040
he too has traveled.

01:20:46.040 --> 01:20:49.620
He began his career with multinationals such as Nestlé,

01:20:49.620 --> 01:20:52.480
Procter & Gamble, Fering, where he acquired solid experience

01:20:52.480 --> 01:20:56.480
in talent management, labor relations and strategic recruitment.

01:20:56.480 --> 01:20:58.800
Thank you very much, Mr Bouty, you have the floor.

01:20:58.800 --> 01:21:04.080
Thank you, and good morning to you all.

01:21:04.780 --> 01:21:13.202
So, the subject of the presentation I'm going to give you today is compensation transparency and how to use transparency as a tool and a

01:21:13.141 --> 01:21:16.619
lever for performance, particularly economic performance.

01:21:28.240 --> 01:21:35.760
We've talked a lot this morning about employee benefits, and we've also talked about the structuring of your compensation systems.

01:21:35.760 --> 01:21:42.580
What's important to mention is that the issue of transparency when it comes to compensation is a fundamental one.

01:21:42.580 --> 01:21:50.860
What we're saying is that what you don't say about salaries is already costing you, because when it comes to compensation, silence is expensive.

01:21:51.640 --> 01:22:01.031
And more than you might imagine, the aim of my presentation this morning will be to highlight the elements linked to transparency, in particular

01:22:00.967 --> 01:22:06.756
the different remuneration systems that can be used as a tool for managing your personnel.

01:22:06.820 --> 01:22:17.660
What we can say about transparency is that it's a subject that's becoming increasingly important in society, with much more regulation.

01:22:17.880 --> 01:22:29.040
Today, we have directives, notably from the European Union, forcing companies to draw up transparency reports on how remuneration systems are structured,

01:22:29.040 --> 01:22:38.920
who earns, how much and why, and to be able to explain why differences in remuneration can sometimes be observed with different levels of remuneration.

01:22:39.840 --> 01:22:51.759
It's also a question of fair treatment, with the need to be able to reinforce trust in the company and its management when dealing with

01:22:51.672 --> 01:22:58.893
employees, collaborators and associates, but also when dealing with job applicants.

01:22:58.980 --> 01:23:09.695
And in the absence of information, nature being afraid of a vacuum, we can frequently observe the fact that we can have our own assessments, which are

01:23:09.625 --> 01:23:18.790
sometimes made subjectively by different people who, in the absence of information, form their own idea of how decisions are made.

01:23:19.820 --> 01:23:30.600
What's also worth mentioning in relation to this issue of transparency and remuneration is that it really does have a definite economic impact on turnover-related aspects,

01:23:30.600 --> 01:23:39.320
people who leave a company because they are dissatisfied with the remuneration system as a whole and its various components.

01:23:39.940 --> 01:23:44.760
Today, the cost of an employee leaving a company can be estimated at around 30%.

01:23:44.760 --> 01:23:48.760
with the various costs involved in replacing this person,

01:23:48.760 --> 01:23:51.280
to train new arrivals.

01:23:51.280 --> 01:23:56.500
And also a loss of know-how at company level, which can have an impact.

01:23:56.500 --> 01:24:00.540
What we've also observed is that there are many people who decide not to leave,

01:24:00.540 --> 01:24:06.000
but who are disengaged, who remain with the organization despite a high level of dissatisfaction

01:24:06.000 --> 01:24:08.700
sometimes linked to the remuneration system.

01:24:09.320 --> 01:24:19.300
We can therefore estimate that 30 to 35% of productivity is lost when staff are disengaged, particularly in terms of remuneration.

01:24:19.300 --> 01:24:31.740
And then these two factors colliding with each other sometimes represent difficulties for companies in terms of market alignment, productivity and job vacancies.

01:24:31.980 --> 01:24:40.120
These vacancies can also lead to problems such as delays in product or service delivery,

01:24:40.120 --> 01:24:49.580
an impact on customers and the company's perception of value, as well as on the workload of those who are still with the company

01:24:49.580 --> 01:24:53.800
which in itself can also lead to problems, notably absenteeism.

01:24:53.800 --> 01:25:04.260
So we can see that the economic consequences and impacts of the subject of remuneration, of remuneration transparency, go far beyond purely financial elements.

01:25:04.260 --> 01:25:09.300
Another thing we like to point out is that remuneration speaks even when you say nothing.

01:25:09.300 --> 01:25:15.200
And that's something that's important to bear in mind: your pay practices are sending out a message.

01:25:15.600 --> 01:25:25.973
And today, it's up to you to define the message you want to send to your employees and associates, the message you want to send to your

01:25:25.897 --> 01:25:30.364
market and the message you want to send to your candidates.

01:25:31.580 --> 01:25:41.780
There is a positioning aspect, i.e. all remuneration policies reflect what your company values in terms of performance.

01:25:41.780 --> 01:25:50.080
Is it an element linked to performance? Are these elements linked to longevity and loyalty within the organization?

01:25:50.080 --> 01:25:55.000
And the message you can send is one of transparency or a more blurred message.

01:25:55.000 --> 01:26:00.040
It could be a message of fairness, or it could be incoherent or unstructured.

01:26:01.060 --> 01:26:08.720
And these elements have a direct impact on how your company, and by extension your products, are perceived in the marketplace.

01:26:08.720 --> 01:26:16.360
And when discrepancies are poorly explained, they are quickly perceived as either unfair or unjust, even if they are legitimate.

01:26:16.360 --> 01:26:20.620
It's just that the explanation isn't available and isn't transparent.

01:26:20.620 --> 01:26:25.220
So you can get a different idea of reality.

01:26:25.520 --> 01:26:36.660
And it's these elements that undermine confidence internally, but also externally, as I was saying, in relation to your candidates and the various partners in your markets.

01:26:36.660 --> 01:26:45.982
And one of the things we often observe when dealing with this subject is that, in the absence of a framework, you also leave your local

01:26:45.913 --> 01:26:50.131
managers exposed to these sometimes complicated conversations.

01:26:50.200 --> 01:26:56.600
and sometimes difficult to have with staff on explaining differences, because people talk,

01:26:56.600 --> 01:27:03.460
because today's transparency of information is more and more accessible than in past decades.

01:27:03.460 --> 01:27:09.680
And so the ability to explain why becomes almost as important as the level of remuneration itself.

01:27:09.680 --> 01:27:17.380
And here, it's important to be able to equip your managers, to be able to equip all cases of executives right up to local managers.

01:27:17.380 --> 01:27:23.020
to be able to explain the remuneration policy, its components and how it is applied,

01:27:23.020 --> 01:27:28.740
what the rules are and what framework is applied, and above all to ensure overall cohesion.

01:27:28.740 --> 01:27:35.380
Because in the absence of a precise framework, what we often observe is a range of approaches

01:27:35.380 --> 01:27:39.700
which can be either subjective or individual, and we lose this overall coherence,

01:27:39.700 --> 01:27:46.880
which, once again, fuels the perception of unequal treatment and a lack of transparency.

01:27:47.380 --> 01:27:54.680
So there's a real need to get out of the vagueness and structure remuneration in a clear way.

01:27:54.680 --> 01:28:03.880
What we can see is that more and more organizations today are investing in a structured reading of the different weights or values to be assigned to different jobs.

01:28:03.880 --> 01:28:07.500
to structure and explain pay differentials.

01:28:07.840 --> 01:28:13.660
It allows you to capitalize on the wealth of different professions that may exist within your organization,

01:28:13.660 --> 01:28:19.700
to be able to use methods such as the job evaluation process,

01:28:19.700 --> 01:28:27.740
which enables you to analyze all the elements and requirements of the various positions within your organization

01:28:27.740 --> 01:28:32.040
to define a positioning in terms of requirements and impact on the organization

01:28:32.040 --> 01:28:39.040
and therefore justify a level of remuneration that is structured, transparent and communicable.

01:28:39.040 --> 01:28:44.540
It's often said that a perfect compensation policy is rare, if ever.

01:28:44.540 --> 01:28:50.380
What we can encourage, however, is a remuneration policy that is both acceptable and accepted.

01:28:50.380 --> 01:28:53.640
What this means is that for it to be acceptable and accepted,

01:28:53.640 --> 01:28:57.860
this remuneration policy must be clear and understandable.

01:28:58.080 --> 01:29:06.742
And that's where we come up against the challenge of transparency, of being able to explain the structure of the remuneration policy, the

01:29:06.679 --> 01:29:11.477
different levels, the different requirements for a wide variety of positions.

01:29:11.540 --> 01:29:19.712
And then there's the issue of comparison, comparing ourselves with the market. We're in an increasingly competitive job market,

01:29:19.649 --> 01:29:22.817
with a war for talent that continues to intensify.

01:29:23.240 --> 01:29:29.540
And what we can observe, particularly in family businesses, is that in the end, the comparison is not always with the market.

01:29:29.540 --> 01:29:31.560
Comparisons are often made internally.

01:29:31.560 --> 01:29:37.820
How are the differences in remuneration between the marketing and finance departments defined?

01:29:37.820 --> 01:29:42.820
How does my IT manager compare with my quality manager?

01:29:42.820 --> 01:29:52.000
And so, the challenge of comparison is both internal, to facilitate and improve the organization's internal social climate.

01:29:52.820 --> 01:30:00.860
Particularly in family businesses, where people stay for a long time, as opposed to more international structures where there is a high degree of mobility.

01:30:00.860 --> 01:30:06.220
But also in relation to the market, to finally know what I'm comparing myself to?

01:30:06.220 --> 01:30:15.800
Is my CFO's role really comparable to that of the SB's CFO in terms of positioning and business scope?

01:30:15.800 --> 01:30:21.480
And therefore to succeed in evaluating these jobs, defining the levels of requirement, defining the levels of responsibility,

01:30:21.480 --> 01:30:28.000
making the link with remuneration levels, will also enable you to have a coherent narrative

01:30:28.000 --> 01:30:33.200
to explain the differences you have both internally and with the market.

01:30:33.200 --> 01:30:40.860
The aim of all this is to stabilize the social climate, and also to stabilize the staff.

01:30:40.860 --> 01:30:45.660
so that we can have a workforce that is both loyal and motivated,

01:30:45.660 --> 01:30:51.400
with prospects for advancement, and clarity on remuneration packages,

01:30:51.400 --> 01:30:54.840
how they position themselves with regard to future prospects.

01:30:54.840 --> 01:30:58.700
This morning, we talked about very long-term forecasts.

01:30:58.700 --> 01:31:02.740
and variable compensation components, also in the medium to long term.

01:31:02.740 --> 01:31:06.200
These are elements that contribute strongly to motivation.

01:31:06.200 --> 01:31:10.580
And what we can observe is that these elements are sometimes inaudible.

01:31:10.580 --> 01:31:14.000
if elements related to current compensation are not included.

01:31:14.000 --> 01:31:19.180
And so it's important to be able to, as managers,

01:31:19.180 --> 01:31:25.620
it's important to be able to explain where you're starting from and where you're going.

01:31:25.620 --> 01:31:32.460
So, as you can see, better remuneration means better management of your remuneration policy.

01:31:32.460 --> 01:31:38.260
Clarifying means strengthening your ability to act when faced with issues of attractiveness and commitment,

01:31:38.260 --> 01:31:45.520
both to attract by having a clear positioning in relation to the level of remuneration you can find on the market,

01:31:45.520 --> 01:31:53.920
have a clear positioning to explain your positioning in relation to the level that your candidates will be able to find on the market.

01:31:53.920 --> 01:32:02.580
It also gives you greater transparency in the recruitment process, which can be very lengthy, depending on the position.

01:32:02.640 --> 01:32:12.020
As we said earlier, almost 30% of the annual salary can be considered as a cost in relation to this replacement and turnover system.

01:32:12.020 --> 01:32:23.640
It's important to be able to limit the number of casting errors, which are sometimes linked to disappointment at the very end of a career in relation to a remuneration policy.

01:32:23.640 --> 01:32:32.100
As you can see, these elements can improve your positioning in relation to your market, helping you to position yourself in relation to your market.

01:32:32.100 --> 01:32:37.980
and attract candidates who are already aligned with your compensation policy.

01:32:37.980 --> 01:32:46.040
We've also talked about loyalty-building elements, in relation to the fact that a transparent remuneration policy is a key factor in the company's success.

01:32:46.040 --> 01:32:52.560
allows us to feed the company's discourse on equal treatment and transparency,

01:32:52.560 --> 01:32:59.180
on elements that are increasingly important and sought-after across the generations.

01:32:59.180 --> 01:33:11.674
We often talk about Generation Z, which has really high expectations in relation to these issues. These issues go far beyond generation Z. Today, we have a

01:33:11.594 --> 01:33:21.780
global workforce which, particularly in Switzerland, is increasingly scrupulous and attentive to these elements of remuneration.

01:33:21.860 --> 01:33:26.120
the ability to speak transparently about these elements is becoming increasingly important.

01:33:26.120 --> 01:33:31.120
And finally, to mobilize with an approach that is both coherent and effective.

01:33:31.120 --> 01:33:35.260
to guide the behaviors you want to see emerge within your organizations,

01:33:35.260 --> 01:33:40.440
have a compensation policy in line with your business model,

01:33:40.440 --> 01:33:44.180
with the nature of the professions that make up your organization.

01:33:44.180 --> 01:33:48.360
You don't motivate commodity traders in the same way as IT managers.

01:33:48.360 --> 01:33:56.826
And so, it's important to be able to have this clarity and this alignment and this coherence in relation to, I'd say, the elements which, in the end,

01:33:56.770 --> 01:34:01.424
must serve the performance, notably the economic performance, of your organization.

01:34:01.480 --> 01:34:11.240
When it comes to compensation transparency, there are three points I really want to stress.

01:34:11.240 --> 01:34:13.820
and if there are three things you leave it at, these are them.

01:34:13.820 --> 01:34:15.400
Vagueness has a cost.

01:34:15.400 --> 01:34:19.240
Transparency is not a risk, it's a strategic investment

01:34:19.240 --> 01:34:22.200
to attract, retain and mobilize your staff.

01:34:22.200 --> 01:34:24.620
Equity is built.

01:34:24.620 --> 01:34:27.980
It's based on clear benchmarks and clear choices

01:34:27.980 --> 01:34:31.060
and criteria that are both objective and shared.

01:34:31.060 --> 01:34:34.240
And remuneration is a lever for economic performance.

01:34:34.240 --> 01:34:37.720
When it is clear and coherent, it aligns decisions,

01:34:37.720 --> 01:34:41.400
It helps to strengthen employee commitment and improve productivity.

01:34:41.400 --> 01:34:44.360
The question is, what do we do now?

01:34:44.360 --> 01:34:46.240
Your compensation system already tells a story.

01:34:46.240 --> 01:34:49.160
Do you really know what it says about you?

01:34:49.160 --> 01:34:49.420
Merci.

01:34:49.420 --> 01:35:03.200
Thank you very much.

01:35:03.200 --> 01:35:07.500
The presentations were dense, there was a lot going on.

01:35:07.720 --> 01:35:11.060
We'll now open the floor to questions and answers.

01:35:11.060 --> 01:35:14.580
I invite you, ladies and gentlemen, to return to the stage.

01:35:14.580 --> 01:35:20.900
Please, do you need any help? Any good?

01:35:20.900 --> 01:35:22.200
All is well.

01:35:37.720 --> 01:35:45.220
- If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us,

01:35:45.220 --> 01:35:47.420
so there are already a lot of them, we may not be able to handle them all,

01:35:47.420 --> 01:35:51.580
but don't hesitate to send us your questions.

01:35:51.580 --> 01:35:58.300
Perhaps we could start with you, Mr. GRANGIER. After all, your dentist is well covered.

01:35:58.300 --> 01:35:59.100
Non, je rigole.

01:35:59.100 --> 01:36:05.220
- No, he's clearly going to have to make some big sacrifices to save money.

01:36:05.220 --> 01:36:06.840
to start repaying.

01:36:07.460 --> 01:36:16.660
In our introductory remarks, we were told about the younger generation's interest in pension provision,

01:36:16.660 --> 01:36:23.040
Mr. BOTI, you've come back to it, I've come from experience, so perhaps in the journalistic field we're so unable to see the future.

01:36:23.040 --> 01:36:29.620
that it's hard to get started, but I've never had a young candidate talk to me about his pension plan in a job interview today.

01:36:29.620 --> 01:36:36.520
Is it really widespread? And that brings us back to a question from the public: how can we add value to the company's services?

01:36:36.520 --> 01:36:40.200
with younger generations, for whom retirement is a distant horizon.

01:36:40.200 --> 01:36:43.420
I think we can leave with you, Mr BOTI,

01:36:43.420 --> 01:36:46.080
but in my experience, I don't feel that way.

01:36:46.080 --> 01:36:51.020
Indeed, it's something that can sometimes represent a significant cost.

01:36:51.020 --> 01:36:52.600
for the organization.

01:36:52.600 --> 01:36:57.280
Pension plans are a real cost, as we said, an investment,

01:36:57.280 --> 01:36:58.040
but a cost all the same.

01:36:58.040 --> 01:37:00.700
And so, what we see is that more and more organizations

01:37:00.700 --> 01:37:04.540
have different approaches to successfully explaining

01:37:04.540 --> 01:37:09.360
and put the question to their employees and sometimes even to their candidates.

01:37:09.360 --> 01:37:14.400
to finally select the elements of the total compensation package

01:37:14.400 --> 01:37:18.780
and adapt their compensation strategy to these expectations.

01:37:18.780 --> 01:37:24.440
Today, the aim is not necessarily to have the highest possible level of pension provision,

01:37:24.440 --> 01:37:29.560
is to achieve the highest possible level of buy-in and alignment with your staff's expectations.

01:37:29.560 --> 01:37:36.800
And so, I'd say that the important thing is to have a solution that meets needs, rather than having the absolute best solution.

01:37:36.800 --> 01:37:44.019
Perhaps I'll continue with this question, either with Mr Burnet or Mr GRANGIER, but in the end, I imagine that to be of interest, everything

01:37:43.968 --> 01:37:47.069
starts with the structure and how we've structured ourselves.

01:37:47.120 --> 01:37:52.120
So, we communicate it, as Mr. BOTI said, but in the end, what do we create, what do we structure?

01:37:52.120 --> 01:37:59.120
Do you think that companies, your customers, are thinking about this enough these days? Is there an almost generational reflection on these issues?

01:37:59.560 --> 01:38:06.980
Before coming back to the structure, I think that on the first point, to really attract younger people, you need to know what's available to inform them.

01:38:06.980 --> 01:38:12.800
Typically, informing a young person that their second pillar could potentially be unlocked for a property.

01:38:12.800 --> 01:38:17.320
Talking about buying real estate in the future is more interesting than talking about retirement.

01:38:17.320 --> 01:38:21.560
So we need to be aware of the benefits available to raise awareness and provide information on this point.

01:38:21.560 --> 01:38:25.140
In terms of structure, I don't know if you have a point.

01:38:25.140 --> 01:38:28.940
Thanks for the question.

01:38:29.560 --> 01:38:44.432
No, so yes, we do have quite a few questions. It's true that there's perhaps a gap between generation Z, who ask questions, and older people,

01:38:44.328 --> 01:38:51.296
45 and over, who are perhaps much more interested in this question.

01:38:51.400 --> 01:39:03.500
And then, between the two, it's true that foresight is perhaps not necessarily the most worrying subject. What we realize is that we do have quite a few

01:39:03.421 --> 01:39:13.321
questions. On the other hand, it's true that in the case of restructurings, there's very little questioning of existing plans.

01:39:13.640 --> 01:39:22.400
And I think that every company should periodically reflect on how it's structured, whether it's the right one, whether my plan is still

01:39:22.336 --> 01:39:26.556
adapted to today's situation, because sometimes they're quite old.

01:39:26.620 --> 01:39:39.820
We also often come across companies setting up in Switzerland who have no knowledge of the system, and that's where we can really add value.

01:39:40.160 --> 01:39:48.960
Vincent and I recently had an American trading company set up in Switzerland.

01:39:48.960 --> 01:39:55.100
It brought a few employees from the United States and planned to recruit from the local market.

01:39:55.100 --> 01:40:00.260
And since they knew nothing, they started with a minimum BVG plan.

01:40:00.260 --> 01:40:08.800
Needless to say, they would have had zero chance of recruiting with a minimum BVG in the trading sector.

01:40:09.680 --> 01:40:19.480
So structuring is essential, and inevitably raises questions about taxation and organization.

01:40:19.480 --> 01:40:25.320
Thank you very much. The next question, perhaps for Mrs Friat or Mr LEFEBVRE.

01:40:25.320 --> 01:40:33.920
Someone asks us how to protect the pension benefits of an employee sent on assignment to a country with which Switzerland has no social security agreement.

01:40:33.920 --> 01:40:36.140
Then perhaps you, Mr LEFEBVRE?

01:40:36.140 --> 01:40:40.960
Yes, then we have the possibility of insurance continuation.

01:40:40.960 --> 01:40:47.120
But, as I was saying, the conditions are more restrictive than secondment.

01:40:47.120 --> 01:40:53.180
So, we're asking for 5 years of AVS contributions immediately, before departure and on a continuous basis.

01:40:53.180 --> 01:40:58.620
So, if your employee came from abroad before, he hasn't contributed to the AVS for 5 years,

01:40:59.620 --> 01:41:05.060
or moved abroad, etc., or was a frontier worker who was hired less than 5 years ago,

01:41:05.060 --> 01:41:07.780
you will not be able to apply for continued insurance coverage.

01:41:07.780 --> 01:41:13.900
And so, whether it's the first or second pillar, he won't be able to continue contributing if he goes to a non-agreement country.

01:41:13.900 --> 01:41:17.260
So we're a bit stuck here.

01:41:17.260 --> 01:41:20.820
Perhaps the next step will be tax?

01:41:20.820 --> 01:41:26.000
In terms of taxation, here, in relation to this question of occupational pension provision,

01:41:26.000 --> 01:41:38.391
It won't really arise, because if the executive ever leaves Switzerland, taxation will stop. However, the question will arise at the time of

01:41:38.303 --> 01:41:46.592
retirement, when the fund is disbursed, as to whether the capital disbursement should be taxed.

01:41:46.980 --> 01:41:59.160
And I'm referring to DIV's part about the law regarding the taxation of capital benefits.

01:41:59.160 --> 01:42:07.080
And it's important to be informed at the time of disbursement, since Switzerland will be entitled to tax this benefit.

01:42:07.080 --> 01:42:14.180
But it will depend on the bilateral agreements that exist to avoid double taxation.

01:42:14.180 --> 01:42:23.180
So, to parallel my presentation, there is in fact a framework. You have to make sure you understand domestic law and bilateral agreements.

01:42:23.180 --> 01:42:33.484
Thank you. Perhaps a return to Mr BOTI. Finally, we're being asked, what do you recommend to be 100% transparent? We've been told to publish

01:42:33.412 --> 01:42:39.508
these pay scales on the Internet, but I don't think that's what you were aiming for,

01:42:39.580 --> 01:42:45.240
is to be transparent about your plan, I imagine, but what are your very concrete recommendations in relation to this?

01:42:45.240 --> 01:42:47.360
Would you recommend it to your customers?

01:42:47.360 --> 01:42:51.000
So there are different levels of transparency, which is also interesting to observe,

01:42:51.000 --> 01:42:53.700
is to say how transparent we want to be.

01:42:53.700 --> 01:43:00.740
Some organizations choose to publish their salary grids in a completely transparent way,

01:43:00.740 --> 01:43:05.820
This is particularly true in the public sector, where we can find different levels of remuneration

01:43:05.820 --> 01:43:10.640
in a completely transparent way, other companies make a slightly different choice,

01:43:10.640 --> 01:43:16.300
i.e. implementing job evaluation plans and systems

01:43:16.300 --> 01:43:22.620
and communicate the criteria used to position the various positions within this grid

01:43:22.620 --> 01:43:29.440
and to be able to communicate on these elements, to insist on the importance of psychosocial skills,

01:43:29.440 --> 01:43:33.740
to be able to insist that we take working conditions into consideration,

01:43:34.040 --> 01:43:40.600
we take into account the psychosocial impact of certain functions, particularly health functions.

01:43:40.600 --> 01:43:47.300
So when it comes to transparency, once again, we need to have a clear policy.

01:43:47.300 --> 01:43:49.400
and then I'd say a clear narrative.

01:43:49.400 --> 01:43:53.120
And so, depending on what you're trying to achieve, and who you're talking to,

01:43:53.120 --> 01:43:58.020
Do you mainly want to address partners, candidates or your own staff?

01:43:58.020 --> 01:44:01.380
well, the communication strategy will be a little different.

01:44:01.620 --> 01:44:06.960
I'm just leaving you the microphone, and as you mentioned, we have this cost of departures that we want to prevent.

01:44:06.960 --> 01:44:11.500
We also potentially have the opposite effect of retaining staff,

01:44:11.500 --> 01:44:14.740
maybe because we're so transparent and have such a great plan

01:44:14.740 --> 01:44:19.200
that it also encourages people who don't necessarily want to be there or stay.

01:44:19.200 --> 01:44:23.540
Finally, how do we manage this complicated delta?

01:44:23.540 --> 01:44:29.720
Once again, it's organizational strategy that counts.

01:44:30.380 --> 01:44:33.100
What is our personnel management policy?

01:44:33.100 --> 01:44:37.540
What is our policy on business development?

01:44:37.540 --> 01:44:42.340
As I was saying earlier, your compensation policy will position what you value as a company.

01:44:42.340 --> 01:44:46.980
Do we have a thoroughly performance-oriented organizational culture?

01:44:46.980 --> 01:44:53.120
Is our organizational culture more public service-oriented or more development-oriented?

01:44:53.120 --> 01:45:00.760
And what do you value? And based on that, succeed in having, I'd say, a system that evaluates and values the elements that are important to you.

01:45:00.760 --> 01:45:09.280
Now, our personnel management policies are always a little different, depending on these strategic priorities.

01:45:09.280 --> 01:45:18.017
We have an interesting question which tells us that, finally, these speeches, in any case, give the impression of applying rather to

01:45:17.952 --> 01:45:21.995
comfortable levels of remuneration, high salaries, executives.

01:45:22.780 --> 01:45:26.700
Finally, what about sectors where high salaries are less of an issue?

01:45:26.700 --> 01:45:31.780
but where the staff shortage is clear and present?

01:45:31.780 --> 01:45:34.880
Now that we're talking about the building trade, we can think about catering.

01:45:34.880 --> 01:45:40.100
Do we also have, perhaps I should ask you, Mr. GRANGIER or Mr. Burdé,

01:45:40.100 --> 01:45:45.800
Does everything we've presented today also apply to these sectors?

01:45:45.800 --> 01:45:52.220
Of course. One of the main questions will be how to calculate the insured salary.

01:45:52.220 --> 01:45:58.580
So, in the restaurant sector, we could imagine taking into account, I don't know, maybe tips.

01:45:58.580 --> 01:46:01.900
Perhaps in the construction sector, to remove the ceiling.

01:46:01.900 --> 01:46:05.020
The idea is perhaps to contribute from the first franc.

01:46:05.020 --> 01:46:11.900
You don't need to be paid 500,000 euros or more to be concerned about pension issues.

01:46:11.900 --> 01:46:13.140
Very good.

01:46:13.140 --> 01:46:21.060
And perhaps, in your opinion, Mr. Burnet, we're also being asked how to organize our pension plan when we're a solo entrepreneur.

01:46:22.160 --> 01:46:31.600
So, there are possibilities. As a self-employed person, as I said, it's not a legal obligation, but you can have one.

01:46:31.600 --> 01:46:40.420
And here too, as a solo entrepreneur, whether self-employed or via a capital company, you will be an employee of your company.

01:46:40.420 --> 01:46:52.100
So, on the same principle, you'll need to define a pension plan. This involves analyzing the possibilities in terms of your salary and the benefits you want to obtain.

01:46:52.920 --> 01:46:59.440
Thank you. As you can see, this question of countries with which we haven't signed an agreement comes up often.

01:46:59.440 --> 01:47:04.960
So I'll come back to you. We're told that we'll be working on a case for a few days.

01:47:04.960 --> 01:47:09.780
What steps should an employer take if an employee is on assignment for a few days in a non-approved country?

01:47:09.780 --> 01:47:13.660
Are we really in the field of foresight?

01:47:13.660 --> 01:47:23.469
For social security purposes, if you only spend a few days in a non-treaty country and are a resident of Switzerland, you will remain liable

01:47:23.399 --> 01:47:28.510
for social security contributions on the basis of your place of residence.

01:47:28.580 --> 01:47:36.060
Because a person living or working in Switzerland is subject to the AVS, and must therefore contribute to the Swiss social insurance system.

01:47:36.400 --> 01:47:44.034
On the other hand, if it's a person who is not resident in Switzerland, for example a cross-border commuter, you have a cross-border

01:47:43.977 --> 01:47:48.363
commuter resident in France and you're going to send him to Dubai for a week.

01:47:48.420 --> 01:47:57.693
In principle, you should apply for continued insurance, but fortunately, the OFAS guidelines allow us not to do this if we have less

01:47:57.623 --> 01:48:01.290
than one calendar month abroad, in Dubai for example.

01:48:01.720 --> 01:48:05.220
Because when you contribute to the AVS, you know, you declare for one month.

01:48:05.220 --> 01:48:06.740
So it's a whole month.

01:48:06.740 --> 01:48:11.940
So even what's needed is for him to have worked within the month, also in Switzerland.

01:48:11.940 --> 01:48:16.220
So if he works part of the month in Switzerland, you send him to Dubai for a week,

01:48:16.220 --> 01:48:18.420
no need to apply for continued coverage.

01:48:18.420 --> 01:48:22.740
However, if he leaves for 2, 3 or 4 months, you'll need to apply for continued insurance.

01:48:22.740 --> 01:48:29.120
And if it doesn't have the 5 years of insurance, you're supposed to take it off the Swiss payroll,

01:48:29.120 --> 01:48:31.020
at least for the first and second pillars.

01:48:31.720 --> 01:48:35.000
Thank you for your time. Ms Priya, perhaps you'd like to follow up on the question.

01:48:35.000 --> 01:48:42.080
Just from a tax point of view, let's take this example as a business trip, in fact, of which we're talking about a few days abroad.

01:48:42.080 --> 01:48:51.260
It's important to know that if you're going on a business trip to a non-treaty country, double-taxation treaties make it possible to avoid double taxation.

01:48:51.680 --> 01:49:00.059
So if the person is leaving - let's take the example of a country that doesn't have an agreement with the French government, Nigeria, for example - it's important

01:49:00.007 --> 01:49:06.648
for you, as the employer, to find out about the formalities in the destination country, first and foremost for business travelers.

01:49:06.700 --> 01:49:16.466
Because on the Swiss side, it won't make any difference, because we're talking about a few days, the person won't be breaking his tax residence for a few

01:49:16.403 --> 01:49:23.837
days, he'll remain a Swiss tax resident, the tax liability will remain in Switzerland, so there wouldn't be this risk.

01:49:23.900 --> 01:49:28.460
However, in this context, it's really important to understand the rules in the destination country,

01:49:28.460 --> 01:49:30.700
particularly in relation to immigration rights.

01:49:30.700 --> 01:49:37.120
Make sure the person is in possession of a work visa appropriate to the nature of the activity.

01:49:37.120 --> 01:49:39.940
- I just suggest you keep the microphone.

01:49:39.940 --> 01:49:46.260
You mentioned this federal framework for impatriation,

01:49:46.260 --> 01:49:49.400
and then a cantonal margin, if I've understood correctly.

01:49:50.180 --> 01:49:54.940
Finally, what is this cantonal margin and how is Geneva positioned in relation to it?

01:49:54.940 --> 01:50:03.640
We spoke to you earlier about the expatriation regime that governs the Oexpa ordinance for expatriates.

01:50:03.640 --> 01:50:12.640
This is a framework that enables employers to recruit specialists from abroad,

01:50:12.640 --> 01:50:19.480
which will make it easier to build up remuneration elements in the context of mobility.

01:50:19.840 --> 01:50:28.549
I was talking earlier about mobility bonuses, housing bonuses, moving costs, school fees, language costs, training costs, in fact,

01:50:28.483 --> 01:50:31.914
to be able to integrate the employee in Switzerland.

01:50:31.980 --> 01:50:38.840
You should know that it is possible to do this with a local Swiss contract for an employer in the canton of Geneva.

01:50:38.840 --> 01:50:44.260
It's a federal ordinance, but Geneva actually applies it in its cantonal standards.

01:50:44.740 --> 01:50:50.140
Earlier we spoke of federal deductions which are not at the same level as at cantonal level.

01:50:50.140 --> 01:50:55.400
At cantonal level, the canton of Geneva applies different limits at cantonal and communal level.

01:50:55.400 --> 01:51:03.600
So, as an SME or start-up, it's possible to apply it, but you'll have to meet all the conditions we've mentioned.

01:51:03.600 --> 01:51:10.360
So it really helps to position the canton of Geneva as an attractive place to attract talent.

01:51:10.360 --> 01:51:14.360
Thank you, Mr. Ganger. Perhaps back to you, Mr. Ganger.

01:51:14.740 --> 01:51:22.710
We're talking about, we're coming back to this question of who today's discussion is aimed at, and then we're talking about strategy,

01:51:22.651 --> 01:51:25.721
we're also talking about the burden for the company.

01:51:25.780 --> 01:51:33.440
Does what we're talking about today apply to all levels of employees and company sizes?

01:51:33.440 --> 01:51:41.940
In the end, is it as much in the interest of an SME or start-up as it is of a large group to structure itself along the lines we've presented today?

01:51:41.940 --> 01:51:56.620
That's a very good question. The answer is by no means obvious. For a start-up, this is generally a cash-burning phase. So, cash outflow is obviously a central issue.

01:51:57.160 --> 01:52:05.220
Perhaps pension plans aren't the best way to attract talent to a start-up.

01:52:05.220 --> 01:52:14.200
Perhaps it would be better to look at employee shareholdings that avoid an immediate cash outlay.

01:52:14.200 --> 01:52:22.780
So, I'd say, every company has its own profile, and you have to make that analysis.

01:52:23.400 --> 01:52:30.340
But apart from the case of startups, in any case, foresight is an issue that needs to be debated.

01:52:30.340 --> 01:52:37.020
Very well, then. Mr BOTI, as you can see, this is a highly complex subject.

01:52:37.020 --> 01:52:43.540
You are in direct contact with the customers you preach to, and you encourage this transparency.

01:52:43.540 --> 01:52:48.140
In the end, it comes down to the same question. Is this transparency adapted to every level of company?

01:52:48.140 --> 01:52:53.920
to any corporate structure, where ultimately, it has to target a group that is perhaps larger, more hierarchical,

01:52:53.920 --> 01:52:55.860
where you can really build a story.

01:52:55.860 --> 01:53:02.660
It's interesting, I'd say that this type of approach is traditionally found more in organisations

01:53:02.660 --> 01:53:06.700
that are structured and have fairly advanced HR processes.

01:53:06.700 --> 01:53:12.800
Now there's a challenge, I think, for SMEs and start-ups,

01:53:12.800 --> 01:53:20.600
is to be able to stand out in a segment where there are relatively few family businesses.

01:53:20.600 --> 01:53:29.880
And so, successfully implementing strategic elements in terms of transparency enables us to hold our own against other, sometimes larger, companies.

01:53:29.880 --> 01:53:36.800
who may have higher remuneration levels, but are considered less transparent or attractive for this reason.

01:53:36.800 --> 01:53:47.118
So, once again, I think this could be quite a competitive issue in relation to the job market in a market segment where, admittedly, this

01:53:47.044 --> 01:53:52.686
approach is not necessarily a standard, but rather a differentiating factor.

01:53:52.760 --> 01:54:01.424
Thank you for your time. We have a question about the bilateral discussions with the European Union. Finally, if these discussions or an

01:54:01.361 --> 01:54:06.697
agreement are not ultimately successful, what impact will this have on today's topic?

01:54:06.760 --> 01:54:10.160
Mr LEFEBVRE, shall we go?

01:54:10.160 --> 01:54:18.340
It's going to have a big impact, plus all the conventions and agreements are interconnected,

01:54:18.340 --> 01:54:27.640
so it's going to have an impact on the free movement of people, and whether we have a bright future ahead of us, in fact, already.

01:54:27.640 --> 01:54:35.140
But it will have a huge impact if, unfortunately, it doesn't work out,

01:54:35.860 --> 01:54:39.380
since we'd be going back on the agreement on the free movement of people,

01:54:39.380 --> 01:54:45.340
perhaps with quotas of European and EFTA nationals.

01:54:45.340 --> 01:54:49.640
So we'll see, but let's hope for the best.

01:54:49.640 --> 01:54:55.280
And knowing that there is also the possibility of having a safeguard clause.

01:54:55.280 --> 01:54:57.940
I don't know if you've ever heard of it,

01:54:57.940 --> 01:55:02.940
but the safeguard clause that was negotiated.

01:55:04.360 --> 01:55:11.271
In particular, we have included the criterion of cross-border commuters. So, if we had too many foreigners, especially cross-border

01:55:11.219 --> 01:55:15.688
commuters, we could activate the safeguard clause, which would allow us to set quotas.

01:55:15.740 --> 01:55:17.280
So we'll be keeping a close eye on this.

01:55:17.280 --> 01:55:21.160
Ms. Friat, do you have anything to add?

01:55:21.160 --> 01:55:24.260
So, when it comes to tax, it's really a question of bilateral agreements.

01:55:24.520 --> 01:55:34.520
So it's more a question of social security, because it follows European regulatory standards, notably for the coordination of social security systems.

01:55:34.520 --> 01:55:38.400
That's why I left Antoine, and labor law, and migration too.

01:55:38.400 --> 01:55:47.640
Perhaps just one more practical question, and I'll put it to you, Mr. Burdé.

01:55:47.640 --> 01:55:53.400
Finally, someone asked us, in which cases can BVG assets be released before retirement age?

01:55:54.120 --> 01:55:59.060
I've mentioned one: buying a property as your main home.

01:55:59.060 --> 01:56:08.440
Then we talked about the possibility of early retirement from the age of 63,

01:56:08.440 --> 01:56:11.620
with flexible retirement also in three stages.

01:56:11.620 --> 01:56:17.140
To do this, you need to see the pension regulations and what they consist of.

01:56:19.340 --> 01:56:27.460
Perhaps just to complete. There are two other cases where pension benefits can be obtained before retirement age.

01:56:27.460 --> 01:56:36.300
It could be going abroad, depending on the country. It's not necessarily for all countries. Normally, with European countries, no, the money has to be kept.

01:56:36.300 --> 01:56:42.820
But suppose we went to Nigeria to take over the country. We could ask for the benefit to be paid.

01:56:42.820 --> 01:56:52.658
Then there's the final case, where you become self-employed. Here, you can withdraw your second pillar. You don't have to invest it

01:56:52.584 --> 01:56:56.726
all. However, you do need to be genuinely self-employed.

01:56:56.800 --> 01:57:07.300
Clearly, if you withdraw your second pillar and then one month later convert your sole proprietorship into a company, this will be considered an abusive withdrawal.

01:57:07.300 --> 01:57:17.820
But as soon as you buy a pen, which is enough to start your self-employed business, the balance of the funds can be kept freely.

01:57:18.320 --> 01:57:23.940
Finally, and we'll conclude on this point, are these questions in the organizational strategy of this occupational pension scheme?

01:57:23.940 --> 01:57:30.980
as an employer, do we need to integrate or reflect on these issues of early retirement, where in the end it remains anecdotal?

01:57:30.980 --> 01:57:39.880
Clearly, the vast majority of pension plans today provide for early retirement.

01:57:39.880 --> 01:57:46.480
They can also be used to maintain coverage beyond retirement age.

01:57:46.480 --> 01:57:57.287
We know that today, you can remain a member until the age of 70. We can imagine all kinds of solutions. Someone who would have taken a CIP pension at 58 and

01:57:57.218 --> 01:58:04.331
then finally, at 60, says to himself, "I won't have enough to live on. I'm going to start working again.

01:58:05.680 --> 01:58:08.100
This is bound to raise questions from a BVG point of view.

01:58:08.100 --> 01:58:11.660
What do I do? I may have received a lump-sum benefit at age 58.

01:58:11.660 --> 01:58:17.280
I'm starting with a new employer, finally, at 60.

01:58:17.280 --> 01:58:19.500
What do I do with my retirement savings?

01:58:19.500 --> 01:58:23.100
Can I keep it? In principle, yes, I can keep it.

01:58:23.100 --> 01:58:31.720
But this may create gaps in your pension provision, which will be calculated taking into account the benefit received.

01:58:32.240 --> 01:58:38.080
So there you have it, there are plenty of possibilities, and my colleague talked about phased retirement.

01:58:38.080 --> 01:58:43.420
It's perfectly possible to reduce your activity rate in three stages.

01:58:43.420 --> 01:58:51.360
Thank you very much. There were more questions. Unfortunately, we don't have time to come back to them right now.

01:58:51.360 --> 01:58:55.820
So for all those disappointed, and I apologize, I invite you to continue the discussion.

01:58:55.820 --> 01:58:59.260
The people we talk to are eager to talk, and have plenty to say.

01:58:59.620 --> 01:59:02.940
So don't hesitate, and I'd like to thank them once again.

01:59:02.940 --> 01:59:08.000
Thank you very much for your presentations and your extremely rewarding performances on stage.

01:59:08.000 --> 01:59:12.820
So, what do we have in order?

01:59:12.820 --> 01:59:17.280
I need to talk to you, we normally have a slide to record today's meeting.

01:59:17.280 --> 01:59:22.640
It's the same system as before, with a QR code to scan.

01:59:22.640 --> 01:59:28.520
We look forward to your feedback on today's presentation.

01:59:29.620 --> 01:59:31.540
I must also tell you, and this was one of the questions,

01:59:31.540 --> 01:59:36.920
that all presentations are available online.

01:59:36.920 --> 01:59:39.400
So there's a replay.

01:59:39.400 --> 01:59:42.920
You can watch the replay on innovation.ge.ch.

01:59:42.920 --> 01:59:44.860
You can find it in the publications section.

01:59:44.860 --> 01:59:45.920
So everything is accessible.

01:59:45.920 --> 01:59:49.500
If you'd like to take another look, don't hesitate.

01:59:49.500 --> 01:59:56.120
I would also like to thank all our partners

01:59:56.120 --> 01:59:58.500
that make these breakfasts possible,

01:59:59.620 --> 02:00:01.440
And may they be rich in discussion.

02:00:01.440 --> 02:00:10.580
So, I'm talking about the CCIG, FER Genève, BDO, deloitte, EY, KPMG, PwC, Bilan magazine ourselves and then Entreprise Romande.

02:00:10.580 --> 02:00:16.160
I would also like to thank the participants and the OCEI, which organizes these breakfasts.

02:00:16.160 --> 02:00:23.860
And last but not least, I'd like to invite you to our next breakfast on September 26.

02:00:24.500 --> 02:00:30.140
this time at the CCIG, on the subject of electronic archiving and data storage.

02:00:30.140 --> 02:00:33.460
I hope you found what you came for.

02:00:33.460 --> 02:00:35.560
and I wish you a good rest of the day.

02:00:35.560 --> 02:00:36.120
Thank you very much.